Gelatin Baits As A Glow Powder Binder

[tbrinlee]

OK... I went to the annual meeting this weekend and saw them use gelatin for some plastic baits. It got me wondering if I could use it as a binder for some glow-in the dark powder I had from Glow Inc.

I stopped off at Kroger and picked up some gelatin (Kroger Brand).

Per this weekend's meeting notes I used 4 packets of gelatin and 2 tsp of Glow Inc powder, mixed thoroughly then added 2 ox (1/4cup) of water. I put it in the microwave for 30 seconds then let it cool. I noticed that the gelatin had a distinct brownish tint to it.

Results... The brown tint did indeed ruin the batch from a color standpoint. The good news is that it does seem to work fairly well as a binder and the resulting mix did glow fairly well.

Next up... Find some clear sheet gelatin or see if the Knox gelatin is clearer.

Tony

[tbrinlee]

OK... I went to the annual meeting this weekend and saw them use gelatin for some plastic baits. It got me wondering if I could use it as a binder for some glow-in the dark powder I had from Glow Inc.

I stopped off at Kroger and picked up some gelatin (Kroger Brand).

Per this weekend's meeting notes I used 4 packets of gelatin and 2 tsp of Glow Inc powder, mixed thoroughly then added 2 ox (1/4cup) of water. I put it in the microwave for 30 seconds then let it cool. I noticed that the gelatin had a distinct brownish tint to it.

Results... The brown tint did indeed ruin the batch from a color standpoint. The good news is that it does seem to work fairly well as a binder and the resulting mix did glow fairly well.

Next up... Find some clear sheet gelatin or see if the Knox gelatin is clearer.

Tony

Found some Knox Gelatin... much better result. The glow powder works in the mix OK but tends to seperate out as it cools.

Tony

[351mustang65]

Why not just put the powder straight in the plastic?

That is the way I do it.

[tbrinlee]

Why not just put the powder straight in the plastic?

That is the way I do it.

I tried that above but it separated out as it cooled. maybe I didn't have the mix right.

Tony

[tbrinlee]

I tried that above but it separated out as it cooled. maybe I didn't have the mix right.

Tony

OK... I fixed the separation issue (Glow Powder fell out of the emulsion as it cooled) and tweaked the recipe abit for consistency. The resulting mix has a really good medium plastic feel.

2 packetsof Knox Gelatin

1 oz,Glycerin (Hobby Lobby cadle area)

¼ tsp.Xanthan gum (holds the glow powder in emulsion) available at whole foods

¼ tsp GlowPowder (may want to up that later but not until I get the gelatin color correct).

I am still not at all happy with the gelatin color. Anyoneknow of a clear brand?

What I really want is a very clear bait. We'll see if I can find what I'm looking for.

[tbrinlee]

OK... I fixed the separation issue (Glow Powder fell out of the emulsion as it cooled) and tweaked the recipe abit for consistency. The resulting mix has a really good medium plastic feel.

2 packetsof Knox Gelatin

1 oz,Glycerin (Hobby Lobby cadle area)

¼ tsp.Xanthan gum (holds the glow powder in emulsion) available at whole foods

¼ tsp GlowPowder (may want to up that later but not until I get the gelatin color correct).

I am still not at all happy with the gelatin color. Anyoneknow of a clear brand?

What I really want is a very clear bait. We'll see if I can find what I'm looking for.

I got some clear gelatin and the results were much improved.You want Premium Gelatin (Gold grade) with a Bloom around 200 or so. I usedGelatia Leaves (sheets) from Whole foods for this experiment.

Recipe:

6 sheets Gelatin

1.5oz Glycerin

1/4tsp Xanthan Gum

1 tsp Glow Powder

Soak 6 (app. equivalent to 2 packets of Knox) sheets in icewater for about 6 minutes.

In a sauce pan boil some water. Place the glycerin in a Pyrexdish and place in the hot water. Add xanthan if it doesn’t dissolve completelypop the pyrex in to the microwave and heat until you start to see it bubble up,stir it and repeat a couple of times if needed. Xanthan has a high meltingpoint (~170C) so you have to get the liquid pretty hot to get it to mix.

Now add the gelatin and stir until the gelatin has melted.Now add the Glow powder and stir until it is mixed well.

You are now ready to poor.

If you are doing a food color based design without glitterthen you can leave out the Xanthan (I think I haven’t tried the food colorversion yet). Xanthan is there just to hold the particles in the emulsion andact as a stabilizer.

Water Test:

I dropped a sectioned piece into water for an hour to makesure there were know issues with the bait degrading. No real issues with its consistencyin water were found. A side byproduct of the glycerine is that it does give thebait a slimy fishy feel kind of like the side of a catfish.

Pictures:

First try water on left glycerine on right.jpg = You can seethe distinct color difference between the two test pieces.

Glow depth test water vs glycerin.jpg = This is a translucencytest. Both pieces were exposed to a Maglite LED light from the same height andfor the same amount of time. As you can see, the light shows good dispersion withthe glycerin version. I did make a water based version though it was whiter itwas not as translucent and the light does not penetrate as deeply as theglycerin version (see next picture).

2 on left are water and the 2 on right are glycerin.jpg =The first 2 pieces are made with water as a base and the second 2 are made withglycerin. Number 3 (from the left) had ¼ more Xanthan than unit 4.

The last thing for me to do is to try it out on a bait mold.Wish I had one… Maybe I’ll give a tube mold a try using the corn starchsilicone trick I learned at the shop last week.

Tony

[Vodkaman]

I have six gelatine packets and some glycerine. I am not interested in the glo powder, so omitted the xanthan powder. I set about experimenting, to find proportions:

First attempt:

1 sachet gelatine powder (Dr. Oatker)

50 grams very hot water

15 grams glycerine

Poured the hot water onto the powder and mixed until smooth. Added the glycerine and continued to mix. I don't have a mold ready as yet, so I poured into a polythene container and placed in the fridge.

The gelatine hardened crystal clear and bubble free. Unfortunately, the color is a very noticable amber. The strength and flexibility was good, but I will know more when I sort a mold out. Tear strength was not so good. The cast was fairly durable, but once a cut was started, the rip was effortless. Still a very usable lure material, especially considering that it is remeltable.

The prepares solution has a long working time, so it can be left to stand, to eliminate all bubbles. It can be remolted by standing the gelatine container in a pan of hot water.

Does replacing the water with glycerine add any tear strength? Is there a way to increase tear strength?

Thanks for posting. Now to sort a mold out.

Dave

[tbrinlee]

I have six gelatine packets and some glycerine. I am not interested in the glo powder, so omitted the xanthan powder. I set about experimenting, to find proportions:

First attempt:

1 sachet gelatine powder (Dr. Oatker)

50 grams very hot water

15 grams glycerine

Poured the hot water onto the powder and mixed until smooth. Added the glycerine and continued to mix. I don't have a mold ready as yet, so I poured into a polythene container and placed in the fridge.

The gelatine hardened crystal clear and bubble free. Unfortunately, the color is a very noticable amber. The strength and flexibility was good, but I will know more when I sort a mold out. Tear strength was not so good. The cast was fairly durable, but once a cut was started, the rip was effortless. Still a very usable lure material, especially considering that it is remeltable.

The prepares solution has a long working time, so it can be left to stand, to eliminate all bubbles. It can be remolted by standing the gelatine container in a pan of hot water.

Does replacing the water with glycerine add any tear strength? Is there a way to increase tear strength?

Thanks for posting. Now to sort a mold out.

Dave

The amber color in mine was pretty minimal until I added the Xanthan powder (which doesn't wet well in the glycerin - leading to a lot of bubbles since I had to mix the heck out of it). The gelatin type appears to make a very big difference. I have now tried 3-4 different gelatins. The sheet gelatin color you see with the 6 sheets stacked together is pretty much what you end up with in the final product. Consequently I am now looking very closely at the transparency of the gelatin being a key. Same goes for the powder form. Whatever color you start with is pretty much where you end up.

The glycerin in mine did change the consistency quite a bit. The tear strength in mine feels about the same as what I get from regular plastic but it may be that the resulting feel is due to the fact that I did not poor mine in a thin sheet. I will say that the water based version definitely has a different feel to it. It does appear to dry out fairly quickly and has a crumbly feel after a couple days.

Now that I have seen your recipe I think I'll tinker a bit more to see if I can drop the xanthan even further and up the glycerin to get a longer cure time so that the bubbles come out of solution.

I'll be very interested in seeing how yours turns out.

Tony

[Vodkaman]

I made a quick mold to test the gelatin form. All I had was gelflex rubber and as you see, my master was not too keen on the molten rubber temperatures. Ah well, it is just an experiment.

The clarity is very good, especially when wetted. You can see the yellow cast though. The small nick in the paddle tail causes a fatal tear if you mess about with it too much, but it is fishable, but I suspect it will be one bait to one fish. My paddle tail is probably a bit beafy, but the material has good flexibility, but I have never held a plastic bait, so I don't really know what I am talking about. I will try it in the test tank tomorrow.

I will try pure glycerine next.

Dave

[tbrinlee]

I made a quick mold to test the gelatin form. All I had was gelflex rubber and as you see, my master was not too keen on the molten rubber temperatures. Ah well, it is just an experiment.

The clarity is very good, especially when wetted. You can see the yellow cast though. The small nick in the paddle tail causes a fatal tear if you mess about with it too much, but it is fishable, but I suspect it will be one bait to one fish. My paddle tail is probably a bit beafy, but the material has good flexibility, but I have never held a plastic bait, so I don't really know what I am talking about. I will try it in the test tank tomorrow.

I will try pure glycerine next.

Dave

The color issue is definitely the gelatin. That is pretty much the same color I saw in the Know test I did before I added the Gum. One more thing about the Gelatin. The Gelatin actually comes in different Bloom grades (hardness named for the guy that invented it). Typically the Knox type gelatins come in at a Bloom of 100 whereas the premium leaf stuff is around 200-250. I have seen grades as high as 500.

I can say that I made both a 100% water based version and a neither had a tear issue. Now I will also admit I really scrimped on the amount of liquid I added to the mix so it may be the consitency is more a function of the liquid/gelatin ratio than a hardness of the gelatin. I will also say the first 2 versions I tried were with podewred jelatin similar in color to what you had and again... I did not see an issue with the tear strength.

By the way... Really cool look piece!

Tony

[Vodkaman]

I tested the lure today. The big problem is tearing, the line just cuts through the gelatin. Casting the bait would be impossible with this texture, so I need to reduce the water content. A plastic tube instert would help, but I have nothing in the house for the job. Unfortunately, the bait tore out before I could get the underwater footage, but you get the drift:

The bait, code name Big Ed, 75mm in length. I made the master about a year ago, but not having any soft plastic available, I was unable to test it. At first, I was very disappointed as it swam like a soft stick. But, as I jerked the bait over to the corner of the test tank, it sprang into life.

As the pace picks up, a wide 'wagging' action starts. As the pace increases further, the paddletail joins in the action. A bit like a hunting crankbait, it has a dual action. I think that if I reduced the tail root thickness to increase the flexibility, I could get something special going here, but not having soft plastic materials is dragging this project back to a halt.

Sorry to digress from the subject of gelatin, I just got a bit excited

Dave

[tbrinlee]

I tested the lure today. The big problem is tearing, the line just cuts through the gelatin. Casting the bait would be impossible with this texture, so I need to reduce the water content. A plastic tube instert would help, but I have nothing in the house for the job. Unfortunately, the bait tore out before I could get the underwater footage, but you get the drift:

The bait, code name Big Ed, 75mm in length. I made the master about a year ago, but not having any soft plastic available, I was unable to test it. At first, I was very disappointed as it swam like a soft stick. But, as I jerked the bait over to the corner of the test tank, it sprang into life.

As the pace picks up, a wide 'wagging' action starts. As the pace increases further, the paddletail joins in the action. A bit like a hunting crankbait, it has a dual action. I think that if I reduced the tail root thickness to increase the flexibility, I could get something special going here, but not having soft plastic materials is dragging this project back to a halt.

Sorry to digress from the subject of gelatin, I just got a bit excited

Dave

I think we are close on this...

OK… to measure how clear the gelatin / glycerin really isand to see the effect of the gelatin / glycerine ration I modified the ratio.

Recipe

• 6 leafs gelatin
• 2 fl oz. Glycerin

In a double boiler I heated the glycerin until the water wasboiling in the double boiler (Pyrex cup in a sauce pan). While it was heating Isoaked the gelatin in a ice water bath for 5 minutes.

I stirred in the gelatin into the hot glycerin and allowedit to cool. I noticed there were still some micro-bubbles in suspension so Ireheated the solution to the boiling point again but did not stir, thenre-cooled the liquid. This time it looked good.

There is still a slight touch of discoloration to the gelbut overall I liked how clear it became. I have seen gelatin shots that areclear so I know that the right gelatin should get it very close totransparent.

No issue with tear strength that I can tell.

This batch was softer than the previous batch sinceI increased the volume of glycerin. This was an attempt to see if it was theglycerin/gelatin ratio that is causing the tearing issue.

One more thing… Most cook books tell you not to get the gelatinover about 70C. In the microwave and again in the double boiler I am gettingthe mixture close to 100C. I wonder if Iam causing the gelatin to congeal to a harder state.

Pictures attached...

Tony

[tbrinlee]

I tested the lure today. The big problem is tearing, the line just cuts through the gelatin. Casting the bait would be impossible with this texture, so I need to reduce the water content. A plastic tube instert would help, but I have nothing in the house for the job. Unfortunately, the bait tore out before I could get the underwater footage, but you get the drift:

The bait, code name Big Ed, 75mm in length. I made the master about a year ago, but not having any soft plastic available, I was unable to test it. At first, I was very disappointed as it swam like a soft stick. But, as I jerked the bait over to the corner of the test tank, it sprang into life.

As the pace picks up, a wide 'wagging' action starts. As the pace increases further, the paddletail joins in the action. A bit like a hunting crankbait, it has a dual action. I think that if I reduced the tail root thickness to increase the flexibility, I could get something special going here, but not having soft plastic materials is dragging this project back to a halt.

Sorry to digress from the subject of gelatin, I just got a bit excited

Dave

I just reviewed your video and I see what you mean. The wiggle action on the tail will probably tear the body apart. If you go to a stiffer material you may not get the action you want. That is a tough one.

I usually just cut and past my MS Word response into this but after rereading my email my typing SUCKS and a lot of spaces got cannibalized. Sorry you had to wade through that.

Tony

[Vodkaman]

I just reviewed your video and I see what you mean. The wiggle action on the tail will probably tear the body apart. If you go to a stiffer material you may not get the action you want. That is a tough one.

I usually just cut and past my MS Word response into this but after rereading my email my typing SUCKS and a lot of spaces got cannibalized. Sorry you had to wade through that.

Tony

Before pressing the 'add reply' button, press preview. Then go back to the edit window and all the spaces will appear. Place your cursor at the end of a paragraph and you will be able to press delete 9 times, to bring the next paragraph adjacent. Then press return twice to provide a good spacing. Messy, but it works.

I have 50 grams of glycerine in the double boiler now, it is just not clearing. I will give it a bit more time. If no improvement, I will add the contents of the previous experiment. I suspect glycerin on its own will not work.

Dave

[Vodkaman]

Here's a pic of the 100% glycerin:

After an hour in the double boiler and no progress, I let it cool for further examination. All the bubbles from stirring remained, forming a carpet on the sirface. The rest of the body was opaque. Tear resistance and elasticity were very good. The fish probably would not mind opaque, but I want translucent.

I think the trick is going to be to find the minimum water to dissolve the powder and make the rest with glycerine, but I suspect even with theminimum, tear is going to be a problem. I will keep trying, I have 4 packets left.

Dave

[351mustang65]

I like the Swim bait Vodkaman it has a different action then most but I wounder if the action would change if you use a soft plastisol. (if you need someone to do some testing for you I'm willing)

Dose the gelatin float like plstisol?

Edited May 6, 2011 by 351mustang65

[Vodkaman]

I like the Swim bait Vodkaman it has a different action then most but I wounder if the action would change if you use a soft plastisol. (if you need someone to do some testing for you I'm willing)

Dose the gelatin float like plstisol?

A generous offer indeed. A couple of problems though: the mold is designed for injection with a small hypo syringe (needle removed), so the gate is only 2mm diameter. Secondly, the postage is $41.90 to the USA.

Unfortunately, the gelatine is heavier than water and the bait sinks like a stone. I did the Archimedes dunk test to determine the density and it was approximately 1.2gm/cm3. I say approximately, because the numbers changed rapidly in a very short time, as the bait absorbed water. This is going to be a problem, as even if you produce a minimum water content lure with good elasticity and tear strength, if it sucks up water, it will lose those qualities.

More tests to be performed.

Dave

[Vodkaman]

I soaked the bait for ten minutes, to see how much water it absorbed. The weight increased from 16.5g to 18.2g, that is 10% in 10 minutes. But what is worse, is the bait became very floppy and started falling apart in my hands. Totally unusable as a bait.

Gelatine is a water based substance and offers no resistance to further water absorbtion. I will try cooking oil next, but think it unlikely that the genatine will work with oil. Other than this, I am out of ideas.

Dave

[nova]

Been watching you guys run this around and it's very interesting. I'm assuming that this whole idea stems from "gummy worms". Several guys up here have fished them and caught fish on them; although I have never tried it.

Has anyone researched how gummy worms are made? It may give you a clue on how they make the product; which may help solve the problems you're having.

Just a thought.

www.novalures.com

[tbrinlee]

Been watching you guys run this around and it's very interesting. I'm assuming that this whole idea stems from "gummy worms". Several guys up here have fished them and caught fish on them; although I have never tried it.

Has anyone researched how gummy worms are made? It may give you a clue on how they make the product; which may help solve the problems you're having.

Just a thought.

www.novalures.com

Gummy worms are a gelatin product.

http://www.answers.com/topic/gummy-candy

Tony

[nova]

Gummy worms are a gelatin product.

http://www.answers.com/topic/gummy-candy

Tony

I knew that. That's why I posted what I posted.

www.novalures.com

[Vodkaman]

I couldn't find anything on the web to help the situation, apart from adding vodka to the mix

I tried the cooking oil. As I suspected, the gelatin would not absorb it. Ended up with what looks like a half eaten toffee.

Also discovering what a pain paddletails are to pour. Using a split tube mold, there is no opportunity for venting. There always seems to be one bubble to spoil the pour.

Next to try is agar agar, which is a vegetarian equivalent of gelatin. I think I may have had problems finding gelatin here anyway, seeing as it is made from pig skin. Agar agar works at slightly higher temperatures, so this might help, but I won't be placing any bets. I really need to find a solution for this, as there is no source of soft plastic here that I know of.

Dave

[rixon529]

I tested the lure today. The big problem is tearing, the line just cuts through the gelatin. Casting the bait would be impossible with this texture, so I need to reduce the water content. A plastic tube instert would help, but I have nothing in the house for the job. Unfortunately, the bait tore out before I could get the underwater footage, but you get the drift:

Dave

I also started looking into this almost a year ago.

How about the use of guar gum instead of Xanthan gum? In the food, pharmaceutical and cosmetics industry, Guar Gum is used as an effective binder, stabilizer, and thickener. In cosmetics, especially shampoos and toothpastes, guar gum is used primarily as a thickening and suspending agent.

Here's a couple notes from a lengthy write-up concerning the use of gelatin (and other "natural" products) in place of "potentially dangerous chemical compounds found within the components of foam latex, urethanes, and similar industrial-rated prosthetic materials" to produce special effects prosthetics - such as those used in the film industry:

• In describing gelatine, manufacturers often refer to "bloom" strength. This is an industrial standard which "grades" or measures the strength of the gelatine. Essentially, it describes the relative "hardness" or "rigidity" of gelatine when cured. Higher "bloom" numbers correspond with stronger gelatines. Gelatine with a "bloom" of 300 can be obtained from most special effects suppliers, including Burman Industries, Inc. (www.Burmanfoam.com),The Monster Makers (www.Monstermakers.com), and others, and is considered to be the strongest for use in three-dimensional make-up effects. Remember: the higher the "bloom," the greater the tear resistance.
• Sorbitol is obtained from the breakdown of dextrose, and is used in the manufacturing of Vitamin-C supplements, candy, varnishes, synthetic resins, and as a sugar substitute for diabetics. While it occurs naturally in certain fruits, it may also be derived from corn syrup. Sorbitol increases the structural rigidity of gelatine formulas, thereby improving its tear resistance (an essential element for prosthetic work). Sorbitol makes gelatine firmer and less elastic.

Experimentation may yield a level of sorbitol addition that will produce an acceptable range of tear resistance vs less flexibility.

Hope this may be of help.

Rick

[Vodkaman]

Rick – thanks for the information. I will see if I can find corn syrup, I don’t remember seeing it on the shelves. I will then have a read, to find out how to get the sorbitol extracted.

I was right, gelatin is not readily available, as Muslims are not allowed to consume products that were derived from pig. This brings my gelatin experiments to a halt.

I did find agar agar. Sold in 10 gram packets, it works similar to gelatin powder. I had to add 4x the water, to get a pour able liquid. The result was a white opaque solid with a little elasticity, but when you try to explore the elasticity, the tail snaps off. This is a great pity, as you could get a lot of baits from one packet, twenty packets would make a gallon, which would cost $5.60 and this price would come down if I could find it in larger quantities.

I tried a 50:50 mix with gelatin. The result shared the properties of each, slightly opaque, more flex, but tore very easily.

I am going to have to have a street party for all the kids, to get rid of all this jelly now.

Dave

[tbrinlee]

One thing I did wrong was to leave that last plug of gelatin I tested, setting in a nook in the console of my truck. The sun came out and you guessed it, It melted all over my dash. I just thought I would share that little nugget in case you were thinking of putting some in your tackle box.

One other thing to remember is that this stuff is also used to grow molds in petri dishes. It'll grow just about any mold there is.

Tony