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A Couple Questions On Building A Hunting Crank


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#1 RayburnGuy

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:57 PM

After doing much reading in the archives :wacko: I decided to give building a crankbait that will hunt a try. Fortunately I'm really close with the first try. About as close as one can get with testing in the bathtub. About the time the bait starts to wander to one side I run out of room. Will have to do more testing when I can get out to a friends pond.

The bait was built out of PVC so repeated testing could be done without continually having to reseal the bait. My question is will the paint and clear coat alter the action enough to overpower everything I've done so far?

thanks guys,
Ben

p.s. Many thanks to guys like Skeeter, LaPala, Vodkaman, The Lure Professor, BobP and soooooo many more for sharing their insight into building cranks that hunt.

Edited by RayburnGuy, 12 September 2012 - 12:00 AM.


#2 littleriver

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 12:20 PM

Can't say about hunters but swim test everything I build before paint. Unless it is a really small bait they all have pretty much the same action after paint and topcoat as before. Even the small ones action stays the same but sometimes a floater turns into a suspender or worse sinker.

If I we're you, I would try the bait in some deeper water before finishing. Really need to see the whole action to truly know what you have. What sort of hunter are you building? A shallow wanderer or a deeper darting bait like a wiggle wart. Maybe something totally new?

Good luck !!

Vic

#3 BobP

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 06:56 PM

I don't think paint and a topcoat will have any effect.

#4 bassguy

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:16 PM

Some of the baits I build hunt, although not deliberately. When testing the bait to see how it floats, they sometimes list to one side or the other. By adding just enough weight to make it sit "square" to the surface of the water, will make the bait hunt.

Jerry

#5 RayburnGuy

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:49 PM

Thanks guys. I'm trying to build a shallow hunter Vic. From what I've read there is a very fine line between a bait that will hunt and one that either tracks true or one that blows out. The question asked about the paint and clear coat altering the action. A better way to have asked that would have been to ask if it altered the balance enough to change the action. But I guess since your proportionately increasing the mass of the whole bait (even though very minutely) it wouldn't have much of an effect on the way the lure is balanced.

This build is more an experiment in building technique than anything else. I'm out of balsa at the moment and that is one of the reasons this one was built out of PVC. The PVC doesn't allow much room for experimenting with ballast as it's already close to neutral buoyancy by the time you add all the hardware. On this particular bait there's only about 4 grams to play with before it becomes a sinker. Balsa is going to be the best material for a hunter since it has a much greater buoyancy which translates into a livelier action.

thanks again for the help,
Ben

#6 Vodkaman

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 04:59 AM

Unfortunately in my experience, the top coat will disturb the action. The good news is that it will be knocked bact to a normal swimmer. You may get away with it and I hope you do! Be sure to let us know what happens.

Dave

#7 Seeking 56

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:47 AM

For me, putting 3 layers of clearcoat on my 8''glidebaits changes the action. They're not as subtle. This is why now I only put 2. On my lipped baits of the same size I keep 3 and it makes no difference since the bill commands the action.

If I was going to make a hunter personally, I'd start off by offsetting the ballast more to one side of the bait instead of dead center and then compensate with the line tie to make it track.

I'd be very curious to know how it turns out RBG.

s54

#8 RayburnGuy

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:47 AM

Thanks guys. I'll definitely keep your ideas in mind.

Ben

#9 Musky Glenn

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 03:33 PM

I didn't weigh the brick mold pvc to check it for weight, but it seems very light compared to wood. On my 5 ounce musky lures 2.5 ounces of that was lead to make it sink. (Slightly more than sink) Musky Glenn

#10 Matt Moreau

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 03:11 PM

Ben I think it really depends on how much paint and the top coat used. From what i know (admitingly not much) a hunting lure needs to be built exactly "wrong"!!! any small changes will give it a different result. I light 1 coat of DN may not alter it that much but 2-3 coats of DN along with multiple coats of acrylic will increase the weight on a smaller crank enough to possibly bring it back to stability kinda like Dave said "normal" action. Not to mention a coat or 2 of epoxy and that can really throw u off.

You may be able to take a similar bait, weigh it, then paint and TC exactly as you would with the prototype weigh it again and subtract that from the ballast. Problem is that paint and TC add a small precentage of weight all over and in my thought you would be only taking that back away from the ballast location so :censored: ... sorry i guess this was just a rambling session :sauced:

#11 bassguy

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 05:02 PM

". sorry i guess this was just a rambling session"

As Led Zeppelin would say "Ramble On"...sorry had to do it.

Jerry

#12 RayburnGuy

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 10:00 PM

No worries guys. Some of my best ideas (and greatest disasters) come from just sitting and thinking and wondering about stuff. And we never know when someone will say something that will trigger a thought that solves everything. Thanks for taking an interest.

Ben

#13 Vodkaman

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 08:56 AM

When hunters come up in discussion, it is often said that build it off center is the way to go. Although this might be one way to do it, my findings are that for a bait to hunt properly, everything has to be perfectly aligned.

The problem with the topcoat is not the weight, but the extra surface thickness. This spoils the balance between the body and the lip.

Dave

#14 solarfall

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 09:03 AM

from my experience there are few points that will help you get a hunting action to a bait, first of all the material that you use has to be very light, so balsa would suit the purpose perfectly, secondly you have to keep everything light on the bait including the wire harness down to hooks and hook rigs.

i've found that baits that are relatively symmetrical in shape, something like rapala original is a good shape to produce the hunting action the easiest compared to others, others do work too but require a lot more tinkering.
and lastly the swimming lip your using is critical, over here in Finland trout trollers use a saddle lips to get a erratic hunting action to there baits, but others do work too like a totally round lip does produce that action too when its put in the right angle.
also you can sometimes turn normal baits into once that have a hunting action by tuning the hook eyes from the belly and from the tail end of a bait. and sometimes if you sharpen the other side of the lip to cut more water it turns the bait into a bait that has the hunting action.

Edited by solarfall, 15 September 2012 - 09:06 AM.


#15 RayburnGuy

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 10:21 AM

Thanks guys. Still haven't been able to test anything I've built so far, but am keeping track of all advice. Appreciate the help.

Ben

#16 jigmeister

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 07:51 PM

I got this idea to make a " Hunting crankbait " test model with a tunable /adjustable weight system so I could change weights and or locations and discover the secrets of just what made a crankbait hunt . I carved it out of balsa using the large size plastic Big "O" as a model .
When it was ready I cast it into the pool with no ballast weight added in the special chambers I had built into my test lure . To my surprise it ran great hunting left and right +/- 1-2 feet to the sides .
No matter how I positioned or added weights it still hunted the same .
I had to laugh because it seemed I could do nothing to make the darn thing stop hunting . I have no idea why it hunts so the whole excercise was a waste .
Just my luck I guess ..........Jigmeister

#17 markinorf

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 08:46 PM

A long time back; I read that a hunting balsa crank bait has the ballast weight high up near the centerline. Seems to lessen roll stabilty. I have by accident seen this to be true with baits I drilled out to reduce fall rate. By drilling out ballast, the lead that was left was higher in the body, and the bait rolled easily. Hmmm. Wish I could remember where I read that. Gettin old.

#18 Skeeter

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:23 AM

WOW..... you guys are too scientific for me. I know how to make a hunting crankbait. And I will tell you that I have not found a way to consistantly make a crankbait that will hunt. Some do and some don't. It is part of the allure of making these beauties. But, my success rate at building one is pretty high. I won't tell you how I do it, but I will tell you that you can toss all of this special off center weighting and stuff out the door. So build your baits as true as possible. Plus... don't worry about the thickness of your clearcoats. It can affect how it hunts, but it will not affect whether the bait will hunt or not. The shift in the action is not severe. It is a subtle shift and it is not predictable. In all of the years that have been making crankbaits there has only been one person that has gotten it right on how to make a crankbait hunt. It was a Japanese pro. And he hit the nail right on the head.

Skeeter

Edited by Skeeter, 11 October 2012 - 08:29 AM.


#19 mark poulson

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:43 PM

I bought one of the KVD square bills that hunts, and it looks like they achieve it by having the ballast ball behind the belly hanger float in a crosswise chamber, so it moves erratically from one side to the other, while the same size ballast ball in front of the hook hanger is locked in position.
I'm guessing that would achieve the moving center of gravity, without throwing the bait too far out of tune.
I think that also might make it easier to vary the weight of the paint scheme and top coat without affecting the hunting action.
I haven't tried that method yet, but it's rattling around in my head, on my "to do" list.

#20 littleriver

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:19 PM

Thanks Mark...The one I bought did not hunt any. Maybe just my bad luck.........

The old wiggle warts had moving ballast balls too. These were known to hunt . I guess one solution would be oversize low hanging swinging balls. I have seen a few folks with this problem and they had a problem moving in a straight line too. :? It's all starting to make sense to me now. :D