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macstackleman

Tin Or Bismuth For Strength?

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Mac,

I pour straight bismuth. You can mix it with tin. I have attached a chart on bismuth alloys. First thing you must be sure is that the bismuth you use is either pure bimuth or bismuth tin alloy. As you will see in this chart, you can buy bismuth with trace amounts of lead alloy. With that said, I don't know what kind of alloy Lure Parts on line sells. So you should ask and get a spec sheet from them. Now this may sound stupid, however I do sell bismuth jigs to guys in Massachusettes. If for some reason someone calls me on it I have documentation of when I bought my bismuth and where. Which is always available to my customers. Now on the flip side, to be honest I can's see any DNR guy telling you that your jigs are not lead-free. Because they would have to test it somehow, and I don't think they have enough money in their budget to do this. Also If you ever get called on by a DNR guy about lead free jigs, you can always say that you bought the jigs at a store and the package said bismuth. If he for some reason tests your jig and it is not bismuth, your answer is simple. I bought them at the store and it said bismuth, if they are not lead-free, maybe they didn't put the correct jigs in the package. It's your word against his. You and I know that a majority of these lead-free jigs will be made overseas, and you mean to tell me that they can't screw up packaging especially if they can't read the packaging. I'm not codoning anyone to break the law, but this whole lead-free thing is such a waste of time and and taxpayers money.

I will finally tell you that pouring bismuth is a lot more trouble than it is worth. It sticks to aluminum molds even with drop out mold release. Also if you are going to pour in any of the molds, make sure that the molds are simple. Like a round jig or oval or cylindrical. I have some molds that would not release the bismuth from the cavity without damaging your cavity by prying it out. So your best bet if that happens, is to take a propane torch and melt it out. Bismuth is very sharp along the edges and filing is very time consuming. When it cools it expands in the mold so it is better to take it out as soon as you pour. These are the things that I have experienced. Others may have some better insight, as I always look for an easier way. BTW this is just my opinion.

BTW bismuth floats for about $20-$25/ lb and a pound doesn't get you alot

Bismuth stats.pdf

Bismuth stats.pdf

Bismuth stats.pdf

Bismuth stats.pdf

Bismuth stats.pdf

Bismuth stats.pdf

Bismuth stats.pdf

Bismuth stats.pdf

Bismuth stats.pdf

Edited by cadman
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Mac,

If you want to harden your pure lead, put in some lead tire weights in there. You can also add pewter or acid free solder these will all harden your soft lead. I don't know where you want to be with your hardness, but the only way you will get this accurate and consistant is to weigh the pure lead to a ratio of hard lead. You'll have to do some testing, and this may be a little time consuming to figure out what you want. I on the other hand like my jigs on the hard side. So my mix is 70% hard lead and 30% soft lead. Good luck on your ratios. If you need more help definitely post up your questions. Someone here will for sure know a lot more about bismuth or hardening lead ratios than I do.

Edited by cadman
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Thanks Cadman, this is great info.

What I am trying to do is hardend my lead, I have a small shakey head that keeps working loose due to doft lead. I use pure lead. I read here once a lead free solder added to the lead will hardend it.

Thanks for the reply, like I said awesome info there.

Like Cadman said, wheel weights mixed in your lead will make it harder.

Are the heads working loose on the hooks as you fish with them, or is it a molding issue? A lot of times heads will loosen on small jigs when the sprue is broken off. Cutting the sprue off, or grasping the head firmly (instead of the hook) before breaking off the sprue will fix the problem.

Good luck.

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Been there done that, bismuth is NOT a good lead hardener, particularly regarding cost effectiveness. The primary value of bismuth added along with tin to lead is for creating specialty low melt alloys like Wood's Metal which will melt in moderately hot water. I agree that wheel weights are an inexpensive source of antimony hardened lead for additional alloying with soft lead. I add tin to improve the corrosion resistance of lead but it does not add any appreciable hardness. Since pure tin has gotten rather expensive I use scrap lead-tin solder or scrap pewter for tin added alloying. Lead free solder is generally 97+% tin so its effect in a lead alloy is funcionally the same as tin. In my experience the value of tin to improve a lead alloy tops out at around 5% with closer to 2% being popular.

An interesting anomaly in the realm of hardened lead is Lyman #2 alloy Pb90 Sn5 Sb5 which is much harder than explained by the sum of its lead-tin-antimony constituents.

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Mac,

I was hoping Hawnjigs was going to chime in. He has helped me a great deal with pouring of bismuth jigs and he knows his alloys. I thought your original question was to pour bismuth jigs. I didn't know you wanted to use it to mix in soft lead, which like hawnjigs said, I would not do that either. I would find a cheaper alternative to harden your lead.

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Thanks Cadman, this is great info.

What I am trying to do is hardend my lead, I have a small shakey head that keeps working loose due to doft lead. I use pure lead. I read here once a lead free solder added to the lead will hardend it.

Thanks for the reply, like I said awesome info there.

Lead free solder will absolutely harden your lead. Will you kindly post a pic of the shakey head you're using along w/ the specific hook you're molding inside the jig?

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Here in NY lead wheel weights have been outlawed for a number of years so I wouldn't try them, they may be zinc. Funny thing is, you van buy all the lead jigs you want, you can buy lead sinkers or weight that are over a 1/2 ounce which means you can't buy lead split shot, but you can use lead weights and sinkers of any size, go figure.

Rodney

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Have anyone poured the Do it, barbed Erie jig in Bismuth/tin?

The skinny spike Erie collar barbs are very fragile for brittle bismuth or high bismuth alloys. With pure tin the barbs bend EZ like very soft lead. Best lead free alloys for barb integrity were high tin low bismuth which exhibit ductile strength similar to hard lead.

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I had no sticking problem with an older BLUE HANDLE Do-it Erie using the standard 58-42 low melt BiSn alloy sold by RotoMetals. Newer black handle molds are more likely to have grabby ruff cavity faces. That alloy was borderline for collar barb integrity if the top third was CAREFULLY nipped off, and as mentioned I would suggest higher tin content for stronger barbs.

Lead free sticking is mostly due to the cooling expansion of bismuth since tin, like lead, contracts when cooling. An alloy like Sn95 Bi5 would significantly tuffen up collar barbs and MAY be less likely to mold stick, altho even that small percentage of bismuth will cause cooling expansion. That alloy could have cavity fill out problems in some molds tho.

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Just poured my first batch of bismuth jigs.

 

I used a 70/30 Bismuth/tin alloy, and had some severe sticking problems.  While round heads remove quite easily, the Erie(black handle do it mold) sticks.  But I managed the remove most of the Eries, by wrickling them loose by the hook shaft. But not all caveties are equally sticky, might try to polish them for smoother removal.

 

Removing the sprue, was like playing the lottery. On some the sprue lierally fell off by itself, by other I had to use a cutter. 

 

@Cadman

 

I find the pouring higher a percentage bismuth, makes the alloy pulverisize by hardening. So how do you manage to pour straight bismuth??

Edited by Killerbug
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 Although pricey @ approxiametely $35.00 per pound,lead free solder pours a hard ,not brittle jig for sure.It also makes an excellent trick jig since it's lighter vs. lead. You'll need to run your pot @ 750 + degrees and use a stroger pair of lead dikes to cut off the sprue. Just a thought after reading the caveats associated w/a tin / bismuth mix.

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Just poured my first batch of bismuth jigs.

 

I used a 70/30 Bismuth/tin alloy, and had some severe sticking problems.  While round heads remove quite easily, the Erie(black handle do it mold) sticks.  But I managed the remove most of the Eries, by wrickling them loose by the hook shaft. But not all caveties are equally sticky, might try to polish them for smoother removal.

 

Removing the sprue, was like playing the lottery. On some the sprue lierally fell off by itself, by other I had to use a cutter. 

 

@Cadman

 

I find the pouring higher a percentage bismuth, makes the alloy pulverisize by hardening. So how do you manage to pour straight bismuth??

 

 

Killerbug,

    I have never poured the Erie jig in bismuth. However I have both of the Erie jig molds. I will pour some this weekend and give you some feedback. I believe the mold I have with the sharp barb has a blue handle on it which is the older one. I will tell you one thing for sure is that I have a lot of older Do-It molds, back in the day when the handles were color coded. They poured 100% times better than most of the new ones, whether lead or bismuth. Like Hawn said their old mold cavities were made with a much smoother surface in the cavity. Some of the new molds have course surface which does not want to release lead easily and it's worse on bismuth. Now if you want to make the pouring experience with bismuth less frustrating, you can take a Dremel with a polishing swab, and polish out the surface and all other nooks and crannies in the cavity. You can use rubbing compound, or jewelers rouge, or some other rough polishing compound. This does work as I have tried it, however it is very time consuming. In the case of the Erie jig at least there is room to work in. Some of the smaller jigs you are out of luck. Also one other thing to check is the edges of the cavities on both mold halves. I have a brush jig mold that I could not release from a lead pour without taking pliers out and prying it out. This was a new mold. What I found was that where the two mold halves meet on a particular cavity, there was a small burr on all of the cavities. This is caused by the company polishing down the two mold halves to get them flat. Once I polished the edges of all the cavities, the jig fell out. One other thing that happens occasionally, is that when the two mold halves are made, the trailing ends toward the flat mold half should draft (taper) out. If it drafts slightly in, the jig will not release and there is really no fix for this other than filing the cavity. This is hard to explain, but take a look at the PDF file I attached. It pretty much explains what I’m talking about. I’m not saying this is your problem, however over the years workmanship has gotten sloppier and tolerances have gotten looser. Also these are some of the things you can check to see if this is causing part of the problem. Finally mold release does help some in bismuth pouring as well.

 

I’ll post results of my Erie jig pours this weekend along with the correct bismuth alloy I have as I don't remember which ones I have in which pot currently.

mold blank .pdf

mold blank .pdf

mold blank .pdf

mold blank .pdf

mold blank .pdf

mold blank .pdf

mold blank .pdf

mold blank .pdf

mold blank .pdf

Edited by cadman
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Hi Cadman, and thanks for digging into this.  I did polish my Erie mold yesterday with a dremel and some silver polish, and poured some Bi/Sn.  They still stick, but with the right grip, they release.

 

To be honest, I like pouring Bismuth more and more, even managed to powder paint a few.

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Yes, tin at 64% lead weight vs. bismuth at 85% lead weight. As smallmouthaholic pointed out the lightness could have advantages for certain "trick" applications requiring slower fall or shallow running. For example, the Cabela's Wobble Jig is perfect for casting in tin, especially since the deep cavities are impossible to pour with bismuth alloys down to the 58-42 I tried. For snaggy bottom shallow river trout fishing I prefer a similar flat bottom tin jig. Mostly tho, I agree that heavier bismuth is advantageous for casting distance, drop speed, and handling in wind or current.

Just noticed you're in Denmark, one of the pioneers of lead free fishing. How are bismuth & tin prices in your country?

Edited by hawnjigs
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