Hot Plastic Discoloring ?

[Painter1]

I am having a lot of trouble with color change or "ambering".   Please see example picture below.  

Details for this pour;

8 cups CC soft clear heated in microwave. Initial heat 10 minutes brought to gel stage.  Two intervals of 1 minute each and One interval of 30 seconds brought temp to 312F.  Added 2 tsp heat stabilizer and colorant (white pearlescent + violet hi-lite + black & purple flake). poured into Presto Pot (pre-heated to 200F) and turned on stirrer.  

 

5-10 minutes temperature at 305F (I decided to keep plastic at the cool edge of usability because of previous "ambering") and I started shooting with injector. 1st color is the result and what I wanted.  

 

After demolding I heated the sprues and the cold plugs from the injector in the microwave to 310F and added it to the pot (approx 1.5 cups).  

 

2nd round of baits was discolored & 3rd batch is what you see here.  I got disgusted and stopped at that point.  I did reheat the sprues and plugs between each batch.

 

[Basseducer]

Painter,

I usually make 32 oz. batches of light colors in my presto pot. I put the plastic in the pot with four tsp of heat stabilizer and turn on the stirrer and the pot. It takes 20 to 30 minutes to get to pouring temp. Then I add my colorant and flake and go. This allows me to empty the pot faster befor the plastic has a chance to yellow. For dark colors I can make 64 oz. batches.

[gone2long]

Wow 8 cups that's allot for a micro remember that material heats from the center outward in a micro wonder if your overheating the center of mass I certainly would work in smaller batches.

[mark poulson]

I just made some laminated worms with a clear/flaked top, and I found the clear is much more heat sensitive.  I added heat stabilizer, and that helped, but, once I'd heated my plastic to 350 initially complete the conversion process, per the manufs. instructions, I only got a couple of reheats to 330 before it started to amber.

Since it is my understanding that plastisol must be heated to 350 initially to actually complete it's conversion from opaque, gooey stuff to clear, runny plastisol, I don't know what else I can do to extend the "shelf life" of my clear plastics.

Larger batches don't overheat as quickly, since it takes longer to heat them and I have more control, but it is really tricky with smaller batches, like if I just want to heat half a cup to pour 40 worms.

I use Norpor silicone cups, so maybe what I find doesn't really apply to how you pour.  I've found I can achieve greater heat stability with the silicone cups, and the plastic stays pourable much longer than with pyrex.  I don't have a heating pad to keep pyrex cups heated, or I'd probably use that method.  Frank, I'm jealous.  hahaha

[nova]

Just to throw a curve into this some colors can burn as well. For instance if you overheat black plastic it will take on a greenish hue.

[DAWG1419]

Who makes CC plastisol??

[jeff@mf]

I'm finding currently pouring with my current plastisol is 337 degrees. It may be the glitter turning or your plastisol.  Basically can't take reheats as most folks would like to see. Not sure what CC is but of you over heat any brand you will get this yellowing, the pearl may easily be the problem and hot microwaves. I've said before I don't put my steak in the mic for 8 minutes and come out edible, not that I eat anything cooked in a mic. Microwaves are very hard on all these materials especially reheats.

Jeff

[Painter1]

"Not sure what CC is but of you over heat any brand you will get this yellowing, the pearl may easily be the problem and hot microwaves."

 

I kept very good track of the temperatures (as recorded in 1st post) and never let the plastics get hotter than needed.  Are you saying that the microwave is the problem?

 

If not using a microwave how do you reuse the sprue and injector plugs?

[Baitjunkys]

The problem is not new by any means. The micro is definitely hard on it. Heat stabilizer is not the cure all. It only covers the problem temporary like a band aid. If your dipping clear or shooting clear save the sprues for later to add color to.

[mark poulson]

CC is Caney Creek.

 

http://www.caneycreekmolds.com/

[Slammingjack]

I know in my own microwave. The difference from being perfect and over cooked is 15 seconds. CCM is good stuff, but you must be careful about temperature.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Slammingjack

[Baitjunkys]

If it overheats in 15 seconds. What does make it so good? Cant be the price. Not the heat sensitivity. Whats left? Durability?

[Slammingjack]

I didn't say I still use it.

[smallmouthaholic]

Heat from scratch in the Presto Pot w/ stirror.Inject @ 320 degrees into hot molds and use a hot injector. Check your pot temperature frequently w/ an IR gun.You need to have 3-4 multi-cavity molds to empty the pot within 8 minutes.Cut your sprues into very small pieces and add them to the pot while you de-mold- or add them to new plastisol while you do the initail heat-up.MF plastic has proven to be the best (I.M.E.) for heat resistance to minimize light color changing. Once that light color changes ,scrap the heated plastisol. Spike -it pourasol also works well to resist light color changing.

 

Did I mention don't use a micro-wave for light colors?

[mark poulson]

Smallmouthaholic said, "Did I mention don't use a micro-wave for light colors?  :nono:"

That is the truth.  

Unfortunately, I don't have a pot, so I'm stuck with a microwave for heating all my plastics.

I've found that I have to heat smaller amounts of light colors in 15 second bursts, and stir and check it each time with a IR gun to be sure it's not getting too hot.

I typically start with a half cup batch of new plastic, bring it up to 350 to get the plastisol to transition, and then only reheat to 330/max on reheats after the first pour.

And I am generous with the heat stabilizer.  It helps.  I add a 1/2 tps.+- each time I reheat.

Edited October 28, 2013 by mark poulson

[jeff@mf]

Mics have everything to do with it maybe in this case. 1 have 3 setting side x side x side and all 3 do not heat the same, the older of the 3 works best for me the newest with the highest heating setting is not good for me and blast the heck out of it and do not use, it only for show to walk in customers. Basically everyone will have to experience the good and the bad personally, this is a good place to start for your questions as you are doing.

 

Example: Hot plate cooking medium high heat, phone call.....Sir I got to go my plastic is smoking and burning call you back in a few.....Thats how easy it is to burn.

Larger companies only keep the plastic just long enough to shoot, over and over again without waste and reheats. This is why smaller folks have the problem your having. Try to cook exact what you intent to use to get the best bang for your buck. There is also the bubble effect, hopefully thats been gone through enough..

 

 

Glitter will fade and turn plastic colors

over heating will ruin all plastics if not at least discolor

many issues with plastics and why so many trade secrets folks keep to their self...color formulas is a main one. People want me to match a color named xxx without seeing it, it is impossible.

 

Customer: well its purple with a glitter or 2 in it and its kinda green on the bottom.

Me: Lol Sir I need the bait in my hand and maybe i can get you close... 30 minutes later I have a small bait coming to match lol...

 

Sorry if jumping around just trying to help a bit but my post up top my breakfast was ready and this one well its Monday. 

 

 

My bad I know what Caney Creek is I thought Do-It bought it out and Do-It would be a better name to sell this in my opinion only. I'm also sure without many years experience (Plastisol) do-it is having issues because so much can go wrong and might try and pass it along to customers either because cost or who is making it for mixing and bottling it so on. I am sure CC did not make his own plastic in his shop because of storage, overhead, ventilation and lack of experience with problems that most would not even think about. (it may of been circulated there but not made from scratch) With less than 2 years experience not sure many folks can make it through the ups and downs for many reasons. From beginning to end there is a heck a lot that goes in a business with many things out of our hand that can go wrong, even the customer, off speck material, not mixing and overheating #1 user problem...OK got to go hope all has a safe and good week!

CC is Caney Creek.

http://www.caneycreekmolds.com/

 

Jeff@Monday 

Edited October 28, 2013 by jeff@mf

[Frank]

Mics have everything to do with it maybe in this case. 1 have 3 setting side x side x side and all 3 do not heat the same, the older of the 3 works best for me the newest with the highest heating setting is not good for me and blast the heck out of it and do not use, it only for show to walk in customers. Basically everyone will have to experience the good and the bad personally, this is a good place to start for your questions as you are doing.

 

Example: Hot plate cooking medium high heat, phone call.....Sir I got to go my plastic is smoking and burning call you back in a few.....Thats how easy it is to burn.

Larger companies only keep the plastic just long enough to shoot, over and over again without waste and reheats. This is why smaller folks have the problem your having. Try to cook exact what you intent to use to get the best bang for your buck. There is also the bubble effect, hopefully thats been gone through enough..

 

 

Glitter will fade and turn plastic colors

over heating will ruin all plastics if not at least discolor

many issues with plastics and why so many trade secrets folks keep to their self...color formulas is a main one. People want me to match a color named xxx without seeing it, it is impossible.

 

Customer: well its purple with a glitter or 2 in it and its kinda green on the bottom.

Me: Lol Sir I need the bait in my hand and maybe i can get you close... 30 minutes later I have a small bait coming to match lol...

 

Sorry if jumping around just trying to help a bit but my post up top my breakfast was ready and this one well its Monday. 

 

 

My bad I know what Caney Creek is I thought Do-It bought it out and Do-It would be a better name to sell this in my opinion only. I'm also sure without many years experience (Plastisol) do-it is having issues because so much can go wrong and might try and pass it along to customers either because cost or who is making it for mixing and bottling it so on. I am sure CC did not make his own plastic in his shop because of storage, overhead, ventilation and lack of experience with problems that most would not even think about. (it may of been circulated there but not made from scratch) With less than 2 years experience not sure many folks can make it through the ups and downs for many reasons. From beginning to end there is a heck a lot that goes in a business with many things out of our hand that can go wrong, even the customer, off speck material, not mixing and overheating #1 user problem...OK got to go hope all has a safe and good week!

CC is Caney Creek.

 

Jeff@Monday 

Jeff in all of your years of experience have you ever had a component go bad just setting there? What I am asking is it better to get plastic from someone who sells a lot? This way it should be fresher. It been my experience when some of my plastic sets for awhile it goes through a stage that is not present when it was fresh. I have many jugs of half used plastic that is from all the plastisol makers and it there just for that reason. I guess making dark baits is the answer but it to easy to use the fresh stuff.

[Painter1]

Tonight I made a 6 cup batch of white - no flake.  I heated it slowly at low power and stirred it a lot. It took me 21 minutes to empty the pot after getting the material to 312F.  The plastic consistently took on a green cast that darkened by the minute.  The first 24 baits are pearly and bright.  The last 24 are a sickly pale green. 

 

I used this same CC plastic last winter without these problems.

 

It is a poor mechanic who blames his tools or material but I can tell you I won't be ordering any plastic from CC again, any time soon.  I have no idea what they changed but have another brand on the way. 

[jeff@mf]

Jeff in all of your years of experience have you ever had a component go bad just setting there? What I am asking is it better to get plastic from someone who sells a lot? This way it should be fresher. It been my experience when some of my plastic sets for awhile it goes through a stage that is not present when it was fresh. I have many jugs of half used plastic that is from all the plastisol makers and it there just for that reason. I guess making dark baits is the answer but it to easy to use the fresh stuff.

Frank in the finish product I have and the only thing I have personally seen with our brand is yellowing but nothing else unless stored incorrect. Moisture will ruin it and most will settle at one point any brand out there. In the raw materials I have never seen any changes unless rain was to leak on the stack of drums and again water the issue.

 

Is this component plastic you are talking about? Glitter may also suck up moisture, so many variables with this stuff. Having plastisol where you can see it like in a jug is best so you can see it settle and most fellows that buy drums truly know how to store & keep it stirred 100% keep away and out of the rain. Keeping your drums outside is a no no!

 

We had a contaminating several years back and lost a few customers and call it toxic but cant beat what we have currently and to answer your question I would say fresher the better (YES).

Jeff

[Painter1]

Jeff, I ordered 5 gallons of your super soft, which is on the way already.  I need to make colors like white, light smoke, light blue and light lavender.  I have single and double (Bears Shooting Star) presto pot setups.

 

I typically cook the plastic in the microwave in 6 to 8 cup batches and then place it in the presto pot.  I need to keep the color stable for up to an hour.  Any tips to prevent discoloration are most welcome. 

[jeff@mf]

Well that is a good question for Frank or one of those guys. Bruce at basstrix keeps it up to 2-2 1/2 hours for dipping but he has some pretty expensive pots. Never seen them he said he would have to kill me if he shows us. Not sure what a presto is gonna do and I don't pour everyday especially with that lengthy time frame. Hope I threw in a faucet if not tell me and I'll mail you one.

Jeff

[mark poulson]

Jeff,

Does heat stabilizer help with the yellowing?

[Frank]

Painter1 the way I do it is in 32oz batches(4cups). Turn on the presto pot and let it come up to temp without anything in it. This keeps it from going full blast when you add plastic and turn it on. I heat the 4 cups for 7.5 minutes (this is for reference only all microwaves are different) bring it out and stir then pour it in the heated presto. Then repeat, I mix three of those and start shooting. Two will do. This give it time to settle on a temperature. I don't have a mixing system but that's just me. I don't plan on leaving it there long enough to make a difference. But all of the plastic I have tried have yellowed a bit some more than others. If you want a real clean looking white you could add a drop of blue or black just to clean it up a bit. If you put it next to something that is truely white you can see the color but your eye really can't. Just be real carefull and use as much as you can as fast as you can. On the reheat I get it close to melted but a bit lumpy and add it back to the pot. In time you will get it down to a sequence that works for you. One last point when I say my plastic yellows I mean it has a tint of yellow. It does not get worse unless I overheat it. Frank

[Kajan]

   I have to ask, why do y'all heat plastic in a microwave before putting it into the presto? (Not Frank, since he has no stir system)

[mark poulson]

As a hobby pourer, I've used the same quart of heat stabilizer for several years, without really knowing what it is.

Does it affect the softness or strength of the plastisol?

My stabilizer came an amber color, and has darkened a little over the years, but it doesn't seem to darken clear plastic.  Weird.

Sorry if this is a thread hijack, but you guys are the ones who will know the answers.