Wally Diver (Runner)

[joliepa]

Once a few seasons back me and my fishing buddy got a hold of some of these "Walleye Runners" from cabelas...

he had the idea to grind down the bills a bit to temper that fearsome dive. and ... it didn't work so bad, I suppose. most of the time it would run without blowing out and it didn't Instantly got stuck from a dramatic plunge. on the other hand its tendency to steeply dive and slowly wobble, did make it a serious contendor in some deeper spots (say 8-10') once other baits failed.

on the other hand, this haphazard approach compromised the baits stability, and durability. It also did increased the odds of getting stuck espacially as we tried to lever it out of deep water as we reeled towards shore. M

I'll try not to ask too many dumb questions, cause I know there's a long 'bananna bait' thread going on (and other banana threads in the archive)... but I'm wondering if people have tackled this design, and I'm really curious about the bill. Is there a reason for its thick parrelel orientation. Well, yes, partially to dive dramatically.

but if you made a bait in the bannana shape what would happen in you scaled back to thin lexan and what happens as your bill gets steeper in angle, smaller and the line tie goes back on the nose (where it is for nearly all the casting plugs we throw)? What would be the reasoning in deciding whether to change lip size, shape, angle and line tie??

(I don't even exactly know how my friend was doing to the bill, and all the 'examples' have been lost).

i'd appreciate any hints and tips that people have with this basic design and specifically in making it more friendly to wading and casting about a (relatively) shallow river. Where the holes are all ringed with rocks and heavy currents and bigtime deep diver models wouldn't last a cast...

PS. I think cabelas model is knock off of a corton cordell lure called a wally diver. Which I have recollections was primarily made to Dredge the bottom of deep lakes trolling with a wide wobbling motion.

[diemai]

@ joliepa

 

A lure of sucha body shape as shown would not swim with a lip at a steeper angle(I suppose , you mean pointing more downward) .

 

The curved downward tail acts like a rudder of a submarine , so to speak , guiding the lure downward , ....the wider and/or the longer the tail end , the stronger this effect .

 

And as the lurebody does not have much of sidward stability in the water , it wont go down straight , but somewhat sideward .

 

Now at this stage you'd need a bigger , pointing forward lip , that counterworks by the water pressure working on the lower part of the lip providing the tendency to push the lure back on track .

 

A small downward pointing lip cannot generate enough force to push the lure back on track , first , because it's plane is too small , ...and second , even more important , I guess , ......it's steeper , downward angle just is not suitable to shoulder well into the oncoming water pressure genereated by the line pull , .......as a result your lure would overturn and blow out .

 

Heavy belly ballast could help to keep such lures swimming stable , ...but , ..as a rule of thumb ,  pronouncedly curved bodies and downward pointing lips do not go together that well .

 

 

If your friend did shave off a bit of the tip of the lip of the bait shown , this would surely decrease the diving depth of the lure , as a smaller lip plane generates less force to push the lure downward , simply because it's resistance in the water is now smaller .

 

Also the wiggle of the lure would be less , either in it's frequency or the width of it's sideward movements , but most likely both of these features would become less intense .

 

But since the dynamics of any lure were designed to perfectly match one another , is may get hazardous trying to tinker on one of these , especially the lip size and angle , ........you may simply waste your lure , if you do too much , .....some lure models would be tinkering-friendly , but others might not forgive the slightest change !

 

So , the big and thick lip on your lure is to generate a very pronounced and strong wobble in conjunction with the curved tail , .....the designer would have made it that thick and strong to add weight , thus balance , to the front part , ...and second , ...to make it stable and rigid , as a deep diving lure often ploughs rocky or gravel bottoms , thus requires to be of a certain stability .

 

A thinner lip would have about the same effect in terms of diving action , but naturally is lighter in weight and especially not as stable in terms of rough treatment .

 

 

In terms of such baits getting stuck , when retrieving from deep into shallow water(bank fishing) :

 

I often fish this way , too , and  if not using metal lures , I prefer shorter bodied hardbaits with a big and long deep diving lip over baits with more elongated bodies like your's shown .

 

Most likely the shorter bodied baits dive down at a more nose down level compared to the longer bodied ones , ......I guess , this is because the shorter bodies do concentrate all of their buoancy closer to the lip's base and therefore also the oncoming water pressure on retrieve cannot press their bodies downward as much , .........as a result the belly hook stands off the bottom a bit more resulting into fewer sngs with such baits compared to deep divers with elongated bodies .

 

Also because of the previously mentioned concentrated buoyancy , the shorter bodies lures lift off the bottom a more nose down position , also getting the belly hook off the bottom a tad faster tis way .

 

What you'd need for the described water conditons  would be a short bodied lure of high buoyancy sporting a long lip to detect bottom impact instantly to be able to pause the retrieve to let the lure lift back up again .

 

Problem is , that a long lip might let a lure dive too deep for your swim , thus you need your lure to be very buoyant to counterwork diving depth and also the let it pop away from obstacles , ......you might also rig just one tail hook only and skip a belly treble , if your lure is not that large in size .

 

Also pronouncedly curved , buoyant and wide bodies as shown on my gallery picture linked below decrease a bit of possible diving depth , as I've found through the years :

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/gallery/image/9847-small-aussie-style-diver/

 

Good luck , Dieter

[mark poulson]

Dieter,

I watched the video again.  Always fun to see you at work.

How do you anchor your in-lip line tie wires back into the lure body on your deeper divers?

[joliepa]

I found much of this thread relevant (as well as diemai's informative reply)...

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/topic/26708-aussie-timber-crankbait-help/page-3?hl= wobbling action

It appears that the "big bill" is required to get a pretty big body into a wide wobble.

apparently, the austrialian baits often features cuved bannana shaped baits with an imposing big bill. If I got it right, by applying an omega line tie towards the end of the bill, I might be able to create something with a formidable wide wobble that doesn't dive into the rocks.

alternately, smaller and shorter lures do the job. beyond what he posted, diemai's trademark bannana lure (his copy of a lazy ike) seems like an interesting idea as well (with its integrated diving plane)...

[diemai]

Dieter,

I watched the video again.  Always fun to see you at work.

How do you anchor your in-lip line tie wires back into the lure body on your deeper divers?

 

Which video exactly , Mark , ..there are a few more  .

 

Check out post #20 in this old thread :

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/topic/13043-new-banana-lure/?hl=%2Bbanana+%2Blures

 

Or do mean such line ties for integrated narrow lips :

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/gallery/image/2752-line-tie-construction-in-progress/

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/gallery/image/2753-line-tie-construction-in-progress/

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/gallery/image/2754-line-tie-construction-in-progress/

 

 

Greetz , Dieter

[diemai]

apparently, the austrialian baits often features cuved bannana shaped baits with an imposing big bill. If I got it right, by applying an omega line tie towards the end of the bill, I might be able to create something with a formidable wide wobble that doesn't dive into the rocks.

alternately, smaller and shorter lures do the job. beyond what he posted, diemai's trademark bannana lure (his copy of a lazy ike) seems like an interesting idea as well (with its integrated diving plane)...

You might try this out putting the line tie somewhat lower down the lip , ...would lower the frequency of wobble and decrease diving depth .

 

But maybe those "Bananas" are an option for you , you can make them quite buoyant as well depending on timber material being used , also the more pronounced the body curve , the shallower they will run .

 

I have made a certain model in sizes of 2 1/4" to 6" of abachewood , the largest one would dive down to about 8-10 feet the smallest would run at 2 1/2 feet approx , but as stated , body curve and buoyancy also do their share to finally set the diving depth .

 

They do not dive down as steeply as lipped "Bananas" , so it's easier to control the lure , when approaching the shallows on it's way from deep to shallow water  simply let it pop upward and continue your rerieve at a slower pace and with upward pointing rodtip .

 

Greetz , Dieter

[Nathan]

Diemai,

Do you think the over all shape of the top of the bait helps with the diving depth?..Both the picture Joliepa posted and the little Aussie bait you posted have the diving bill and the top of the bait at the same angel...It's almost like the body of the bait is a extension of the diving bill.... Nathan

[diemai]

Yes , I definately think so that the top fore end of the lurebody(the portion behind the diving lip) enhances the dive in that case , as it's plane, if I may call it this way , is at about the same angle like the diving lip's plane .

Diemai,
Do you think the over all shape of the top of the bait helps with the diving depth?..Both the picture Joliepa posted and the little Aussie bait you posted have the diving bill and the top of the bait at the same angel...It's almost like the body of the bait is a extension of the diving bill.... Nathan

 

Also the scooped out noses on some vintage lure models should serve the same purpose , I guess :

 

http://joesoldlures.com/hurricane/katrina246.jpg

 

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.oudkunstaas.nl/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Heddon-Vamp-Spook.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.oudkunstaas.nl/category/collection/page/7/&h=538&w=717&sz=24&tbnid=HHMxUz1uyO3ZoM:&tbnh=91&tbnw=121&zoom=1&usg=__HvBBtm8_6kDkykbH4lcpsWS2JrI=&docid=V39i5w0RnVGk2M&sa=X&ei=K4KKUp-fL4OUtQaJzIDoCg&ved=0CF8Q9QEwBg&dur=4207

 

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tacklecollecting.com/images/EarlyRRwHooks.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.tacklecollecting.com/earlyriverruntcolors.htm&h=177&w=300&sz=16&tbnid=k1RY8WqhKSuJLM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=153&zoom=1&usg=__QIIz6mAyal6Zp1VZb4h_ePtqMKA=&docid=lNrf3jqzxIi0PM&sa=X&ei=XIKKUob_KcmctAa-34CYCw&ved=0CFQQ9QEwBQ&dur=254

 

Greetz , Dieter