An Interesting Approach To Lure Stability And Hunting Action

[TorqueConverter]

I got a chance to get my Imakatsu Waddle Buggy in the water over the weekend and discovered a few things that those interested in lure design should take a look at. 

 

The Waddle Buggy is a frog bodied wakebait/crankbait with two bizare metal blades attached to the back of the bait.  The bait has a hunting action similar to the Imakatsu Waddle Bat, however it elicits it's hunting action in a different manner than the waddle Bat.  The Waddle Bat appears to be a stable crankbait with an hydrodynamic aid on the bait that induces instability in the bait.  Based on what I have observed with the Waddle Buggy, is that the bait is inherently UN-stable and the hydrodynamic aid of the metal blades on the back of the lure, stabilize the bait like streamer on a kite.  This is completely opposite of the Waddle Bat. 

 

I believe that the instability inherent to the bait is because it has no blast weight and is a hollow, weightless, bodied crank.  The bait's long bill grabs water once the retreive is begun and wants to imidiately blow out.  The drag generated by the metal blades stabilize the bait and allow it to run.  The blades are solderd together with a soft, flexible solder that allows the gap between the blades to be increased or decreased.  Opening up the clamshell shaped blades increased drag and stability.  Closing the blades decreases drag and makes the bait highly unstable to an unfishable state.  With very little gap the bait can't even be made to leave the surface before immidately blowing out.  A large gap allows the bait to run subsurface and hunt like a madman.

 

To my knowledge this bait operates unlike anything else out there and is something that you guys should probably be aware of.  There is another lure with a very similar in appearace to the Waddle Buggy made from wood, the Jackal Bros Wooden Bunny.  A replicated Wooden Bunny sounds like something interesting to build.

 

 

[mark poulson]

Very interesting.  Thanks for sharing.

Where did you find that bait?

[BobP]

Mark, I see one on Ebay or they can be ordered from Japan for around $20.  These just came out, I'm sure they will be carried by several online sources in the next few months.

 

After fooling around with the Ima Waddle Bat idea, I think using the right shape body and the right size/weight blade for the rear of this type bait is a very finicky proposition, which is maybe why the 'next generation' Waddle Buggy is adjustable.  The Buggy seems like a refined design compared to the Bat.  There's also a thread about this on bassresource.com if you're interested.

[TorqueConverter]

The Jackall Wooden Bunny looks very similar and uses a spinnerbait blade instead of the blade found on the Waddle Buggy.  I'll hazard a guess and say that it fishes similar to the Waddle Buggy. 

 

If the Waddle Bat has no keel weight/balast weight and the bait is made to run because of the blades on the back acting like a streamer tail stabilizing an inherently unstable body, then you could potentially substitute those blade for a number of different things as long as they generate drag.  I think it's possible to design a bait like this using a spinnerbait blade/swivel or even a prop blade.

[RayburnGuy]

I built a couple baits a while back with the spinnerbait blades on the back of them. Think I even posted one in the gallery. The ones I built were shaped like your standard crankbait only with a swivel attached where the rear hook hanger is normally positioned. You could alter the action by changing the size, or style, of spinner blade. While not a true "hunting" lure they did exhibit some erratic action.

 

Ben

[ArdentAngler]

If I'm not mistaken the Jackall Wood Bunny is made by the same guy whom designed the frog and waddle bat?

 

How is the action? Heard many complaints saying the lures do not respond the same as the one's featured in the advertised video's.

[TorqueConverter]

If I'm not mistaken the Jackall Wood Bunny is made by the same guy whom designed the frog and waddle bat?

 

How is the action? Heard many complaints saying the lures do not respond the same as the one's featured in the advertised video's.

 

The only video footage I have seen for the Waddle Buggy does not show the bait hunting and it is being fished more as a topwater bait but to answer your question, my Waddle Buggy hunts.

 

You can probably write off the problems people have had with these types of baits as user error.  Average Joe can't even a fish Scatter Rap without it blowing out and those are the most user friendly and easiest to fish of the hunting baits. 

[ArdentAngler]

Hahaha, you have a good point about the scatter rap. I read some reviews off ebay and a few other sites and guys were saying the waddle bat and some others wouldn't perform anything like the video stated it would. Guess you need to take everything with a grain of salt. Heard some great things about these waddle buggy lures, with pictures results too!

[TorqueConverter]

The lure is really isn't that great.  It's was discovering how it operates that was worth the $30.  My BPS Eggs are of the same quality, detail and will most like beat the pants off the Waddle Buggy when it comes to wakebait/super shallow crankbait fish catching. . 

[mark poulson]

The only retrieve that works for me with the Scatter baits is a slow one.  Any speed and they blow out.

Am I missing something?

[TorqueConverter]

The only retrieve that works for me with the Scatter baits is a slow one.  Any speed and they blow out.

Am I missing something?

 

Your idea of slow must be my idea of normal.  The baits run great at a normal retrieve speed as long as "normal" isn't burning the bait. 

[mark poulson]

I am using 8lb fluoro, and a slow retrieve.  For me, the whole advantage to a hunting crank is in clear water with a faster retrieve.  I just can't get a Scatter Rap to not blow out with any kind of speed on the retrieve.  Maybe it's meant for off color water.  I'm lost.

[nedyarb]

I have to admit, I was shocked this spring when cabelas restocked the scatter raps. I have no idea how they sell those things.

[ArdentAngler]

Simple, brilliant marketing scheme...average Joe wants the next new thing to make him catch more fish and Rapala promises that with some fancy ads and voila! Another sucker is born. Been there done that a thousand times.

 

Also Cabela's and other stores get a perquisite for carrying a certain amount of product in a well placed display. The stores are too greedy to see that it never pays off, thus they are stuck with hordes of unmovable product only to be later reduced drastically. Lure economics, you always lose haha.

Edited April 21, 2014 by ArdentAngler

[ROWINGADUBAY]

I have caught a lot of fish [walleyes and smallmouth] on the countdown version of the scatter rap I think it is a great bait but the faster your retrieve the more it hunts until you reach a point until it blows out I think it will be around for a while.

[Don-Art]

I bought a couple when they first came out. Both came up short of my expectations. I haven't tried the countdown version. I would have a tendency to believe that it may allow a slightly faster retrieve rate. Makes you wonder what some additional ballast or even just upsizing the belly treble hook might do for ones that we have.

[mark poulson]

I bought a couple when they first came out. Both came up short of my expectations. I haven't tried the countdown version. I would have a tendency to believe that it may allow a slightly faster retrieve rate. Makes you wonder what some additional ballast or even just upsizing the belly treble hook might do for ones that we have.

 

Good idea!  I'll try that.

[TorqueConverter]

I caught a lot of fish on the Shallow Scatter Rap this year.  It must be more stable than the regular Scatter Raps because I really have to burn the bait to get it to spiral.  It's got a really great cold water swimming action when fished slow enough to NOT scatter/hunt.  It's a real tight and fast wobble with a bit of roll and tail kick that gives the bait a panicked critter action.  It's great in shallow 40-50 degree water.

[mark poulson]

I caught a lot of fish on the Shallow Scatter Rap this year.  It must be more stable than the regular Scatter Raps because I really have to burn the bait to get it to spiral.  It's got a really great cold water swimming action when fished slow enough to NOT scatter/hunt.  It's a real tight and fast wobble with a bit of roll and tail kick that gives the bait a panicked critter action.  It's great in shallow 40-50 degree water.

 

I'll give that a try.  I bought one when they first came out, along with one of each style, but never got around to throwing it, because I was so disappointed with the other baits.

[TorqueConverter]

Bumping this thread in hopes that some of the lure designers I have read about when lurking over the years read this topic.  I don't know your names but, German guy and vodka man, this tread was created for your awareness. 

 

Since this is now a scatter rap thread for the rest of us, the scatter rap shallow is a great bait in the cold (40-50 degree) water temps.  It's not as fast in its wobble as a DT-4 but is much, much tighter with a bit of roll the DT-4 lacks.  The Livingston Lure Shallow Dive Master, despite my initial impressions, has proven itself as at least competent.  It's low buoyancy and eagerness to dive makes it a solid contender in 50-60 water temps.  You can't fish the bait too slow because its thick bill and heavy body robs the bait of action at slow retrieve speeds.

[Vodkaman]

I have been following this thread since you started it, but I just didn't have anything to add. I haven't figured out how the fluid dynamics work on this one, but it is fascinating nonetheless.

 

I am starting to think that all hunting (from standard cranks) comes down to the method that I published recently. I also believe that hunting is speed related and that just about every lure will hunt, you just gotta find the right speed. I have been studying the two hunting vids that I posted; the occasional runs were the bait did not hunt were most likely speed consistency issues. The fluid dynamics of my hunting theory backs up the above statement too. This is not derived from theory alone, but also observation.

 

Dave

Edited April 27, 2014 by Vodkaman

[TorqueConverter]

I have been following this thread since you started it, but I just didn't have anything to add. I haven't figured out how the fluid dynamics work on this one, but it is fascinating nonetheless.

 

I am starting to think that all hunting (from standard cranks) comes down to the method that I published recently. I also believe that hunting is speed related and that just about every lure will hunt, you just gotta find the right speed. I have been studying the two hunting vids that I posted; the occasional runs were the bait did not hunt were most likely speed consistency issues. The fluid dynamics of my hunting theory backs up the above statement too. This is not derived from theory alone, but also observation.

 

Dave

I believe that you are absolutely correct in your assessment that any, and all, lures will hunt when pushed to their limits of stability.  When pushed to a "blow out" state a lure will endure increasing amounts of instability and elicit a hunting action.  It is through this very mechanism that baits begin to hunt as well as behave in manners that average Joe anglers find to be less than desirable.  Simply put, a hunting crank is not for the faint of hart and the Waddle Buggy is certainly no exception.  A Rapala Scatter Rap is a walk in park to make hunt in comparison to the Waddle Buggy that requires a bit of finesses to grab water and become sub-surface and "drag" it's blades to induce stability to an inherently highly unstable design.  Bringing the bait too quickly under the surface will cause it to blow out immediately.  It must be gently encouraged to become sub-surface and then and only then, can the retrieve speed be, admittedly slightly, increased.  Clearly, this is a bait that is as unstable and any unweighted, improperly constructed (without belly weight) bait that uses a streamer effect of a drag inducing element to, for a lack of a better word, induce stability like a streamer to a kite.  Even then, there is a threshold to the stability generated through drag by the blades.  On a recent outing I increased the "gap" and by association, the drag of the blades and the bait suffered a loss of stability, decidedly pulling to one direction or another throughout the retrieve like a crank out of tune, changing it's "out of tune" state twice during the retrieve.  Prior to this the baits action was of a searching for "tune" randomly during the retrieve producing a true random "left and right" action instead of a LEFT,LEFT, LEFT,LEFT, RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT action.  Clearly there are limits to the hunting action the Waddle Buggy is able to produce. 

 

To reiterate, I believe the Waddle Buggy to be a hollow frog shaped wake bait without a stability inducing belly weight that posses a long bill to grab water and pull the bait under the surface where the hydrodynamic forces act upon the rear blades and generate drag inducing stability to the bait.  It is these balancing of forces of an inherently unstable bait design and, for lack of a better phrase, artificially generated stability, that produce a highly unstable, highly hunting frog shaped wake bait.

 

One thing that I feel needs to be established when speaking of hunting action in general  is the breakdown the the hunting motion itself.  Personally, I like to break it down into intensity and frequency.  For example a bait that is of high frequency and of low intensity will deviate from center (or true) at a high occurrence per linear movement in the water but the distance (intensity) from center would be low.  Vice versa is applied in the opposite spectrum of a low frequency, high intensity hunting action.  When searching for a benchmark, I'd have to say it is the Rapala Scatter Raps are that benchmark, possessing an intermediate intensity and rhythmic frequency.  One thing I can not explain is "randomness" something that the Waddle Baits seems to master.

 

This has been load of fun.  I picked up an air brush and some wood forming tools recently.  As a winter project I want to get into bait design.  I'm guilty of loving bait design and tackle in general as much if not more than bass fishing itself but unfortunately a bunch of bass fishing talk and lure design on the net is fairly stupid.  After lurking this forum I think I'll cut my teeth one some Wooden Bunny knock offs with different blade types for fun.  Thanks everyone for the insight.              

Edited April 30, 2014 by TorqueConverter

[mark poulson]

TC,

I think that approaching hunting action by moving just slightly back from instability by shaving the bill of the crank is a very difficult, and not easily repeatable method.  I know it works, but I don't have a test tank, so I can't tune each lure until it reaches that point.  And I'm too lazy to build one.

I spoke with Larry Dahlberg at the Bass-A-Thon a couple of years ago, and he said that, back in the "olden days", people used liquid mercury as ballast, which shifted erratically as the lure wiggled, and provided, as he described it, "an erratic retrieve".  He did not like the term hunting for that kind of retrieve.  Given the health dangers associated with liquid mercury, it is no longer an option.

But it got me thinking about movable ballast.

I found i could take a stable bait and make it hunt, or at least kick from side to side randomly on the retrieve, by putting a laterally moving ballast ball, or two, behind the front hook hanger.  To me, it's the most repeatable method, and not restricted to any specific retrieve speed.

Position of the ballast bore, in terms of distance up from the belly of the bait, will be a variable, depending on the lure design, but, if you're looking for a repeatable method, I think the moving ballast has the best chance for that. 

Edited April 30, 2014 by mark poulson

[TorqueConverter]

TC,

I think that approaching hunting action by moving just slightly back from instability by shaving the bill of the crank is a very difficult, and not easily repeatable method.  I know it works, but I don't have a test tank, so I can't tune each lure until it reaches that point.  And I'm too lazy to build one.

I spoke with Larry Dahlberg at the Bass-A-Thon a couple of years ago, and he said that, back in the "olden days", people used liquid mercury as ballast, which shifted erratically as the lure wiggled, and provided, as he described it, "an erratic retrieve".  He did not like the term hunting for that kind of retrieve.  Given the health dangers associated with liquid mercury, it is no longer an option.

But it got me thinking about movable ballast.

I found i could take a stable bait and make it hunt, or at least kick from side to side randomly on the retrieve, by putting a laterally moving ballast ball, or two, behind the front hook hanger.  To me, it's the most repeatable method, and not restricted to any specific retrieve speed.

Position of the ballast bore, in terms of distance up from the belly of the bait, will be a variable, depending on the lure design, but, if you're looking for a repeatable method, I think the moving ballast has the best chance for that. 

 

"hunting action" is a fickle mistress.  I like your idea of a moving ballast weight to elicit a hunting action.  I'd need a bait in my hands to reach the levels of understanding you posses.  It's awesome you got to speak with Larry Dahlberg.  I'd love to pick his brain. 

 

We can speak about hunting action and the manners through which to achieve it in ANY intensity and frequency all day log, but what lacks outside of the Scatter Raps is repeatability.  Even when both repeatability and fish-ability, or user-ability, is struck, even at the lowest common denominator, AKA Scatter Raps, there exists a highly problematic state where average guy cannot make the bait work for him.

 

We can no longer ignore the human element.  Average Guy cannot fish a hunting bait.  This truth harkens back to Vodka Man's hunting theorem.  A hunting bait is an unstable bait.  An unstable bait is not of the type of bait Average Guy wishes to fish, no matter how much he may want a hunting action.  The Waddle Buggy is several orders of magnitude more difficult to make work than the most unstable Scatter Rap.  I cannot emphasize this enough but the reward is an action that is several orders of magnitude greater in hunting action than any Scatter bait will ever be able to produce.

 

The Waddle Buggy tests my patience constantly.  It makes me want to never throw an :hunting action" bait ever again.  While it is far from wake bait season for me, it doesn't help that the 1st fish of the year came on the Waddle Buggy testing its action in low 40 degree water temps.  

 

If there is one truth to drive home it is that hunting baits are a pain in the ass   

[Vodkaman]

Interesting comments TC.

 

Yes, repeatability was always the main issue that I wanted to find a solution for. Just before I had to stop lure building, I cracked the problem. I did a production test and produced I think it was 11 out of 12 hunters. The one that failed was my fault, I rushed it and took too much off the lip.

 

I don't think it would be possible to mass produce thousands per day and achieve hunters every time, but for the custom builders repeatability is very possible with just a little effort.

 

The explanation and h is the final couple of paragraphs of this thread text.

 

DAve