FishThanks

Angus, I have not seen any adhesion promoters that were designed for water based paint. I paint quite a few baits for Toothy Muskies and I can not imagine not using primer. Primer in itself is for adhesion and for the paint itself to adhere to. It should not affect color at all when you are covering it with a base color for the begining of your painting process anyway. Skipping a step in the process will give you less than stellar results, If the first layer fails they all fail. There is a time window for painting or priming after applying adhesion promoter, if you exceed that time you are supposed to put on another coat before coating. I was lucky to have an experienced auto body friend who made and painted thousands of baits shorten my learning curve. good luck and have fun.

Thanks guys glad you found it useful.

This is a link to a pevious post on how I make my bills. When they come off the table they are finished. If you use a spiral bit they come out even a little nicer but not necessary. http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/hard-baits/11444-making-bills-lips.html

I did not see a mention of priming the baits. I use adhesion promoter on my baits and recently on large Muskie sized plastics on repaints. My lures are wood ,dipped in propionate (plastic) and I scuff with 320 and I spray one light coat of the adhesion promoter and then I prime with two part automotive epoxy primer sealer, urethane paints and two part automotive clear. From my friends who are in the bump business and the directions on the adhesion promoter it appears to be for using before priming on plastic parts or over areas that are already painted for adhesion and blending out spot repairs. I only used the primer on plastic repaints and my baits and they held up great. When I ran my baits (Propionate over wood) in to a Michigan cold November I noticed on some the paint egg shelled or wrinkled a little on the lures belly and a couple on the lures nose. After checking it out I found that it lifted off of the Propionate primer and all. I believe the Propionate contracted and expanded at a diiferant rate than the wood and paint. Last season same drill and no failures using the adhesion promoter. In all fairness I did not scuff the propionate before priming the first season because I was told the Primer Sealer being an acetate base would self etch to the Propionate. The propionate looked like the day it was dipped where it lifted. I can not comment on water based paints other than I would not use them with the adhesion promoter or clear because the automotive urethanes are part of a system designed to work together. I spray the primer out of an Paasche H model with the large tip I believe #5 with no more than 10% reducer. If you are spraying in a higher temps I would go to the slow reducer for everything if it seems like it is drying to quick, that could create an adhesion problem. I spray the Chroma Clear that was given to me a few years back. My activator went bad and when I tried to buy the activator for replacement I was told it was off the market for a while. Is it back on the market or is yours older as well? The paint supplier told me the hardners were the same and I bought an aftermarket hardner that worked fine. watch the safety cap on your hardener mine was not screwing down tight. Hope this is helpful David

I use propionate for coating Cedar muskie baits before priming. I did some naturals for show with just propionate and they looked real nice. I did have some blushing when I tried to do it in my garage with the heat on. It was from the high humidity of a Michigan winter floor and the heat drying it out. When done in normal humidity levels I have not had any blushing even when using it for a sealer. I Use automotive two part clear coat for my finish coats as well. I use acetone for the prop instead of Laquer Thinner. If you use it for a sealer you will want a seperate batch for using as a top coat because the color of the prop changes from all he wood soaking and it will have some junk floating in it.,

For Muskie trolling we modify many baits to hunt or dart. I like to run them when the water is clean or clear. Muskie will follow for an extended period of time and the darting action from side to side will create the appearance that the lure is fleeing from being lunch. I do not like to use a wandering bait in dirty water I find I will have more strikes where the fish is lost from not as good of a hook up, or short strikes. I believe they wander when they are on ragged edge of blowing out. They run out to one side then correct there way back only to dart off in the other direction, We modify wooden lures to do it by running over size bills, and you can also bend the line tie screw eye down a little at a time. I think some of the darting comes from pressure building up on and flexing the bill. I am talking about baits being trolled from 3.9 to 4.5 m.p.h. It is usually more often on a straight bait than a jointed however a jointed will wander as well. I usually modify the bait to have a split ring on the rear treble for a little more action as well. I have lures from many companies that have the bill off center or crooked and after tuning the lure to run they are fish catching machines. A lure that wanders on the ragged edge will blow out at trolling speeds from a smaller amount of weed fouling than a real true running bait which is part of my reasoning for calling it running on the ragged edge.

I have been using the same can of Dupont clear for three years. As Frank said my catalyst went at two years because the cap was not screwing down tight. I broke the rules and bought a different brand of catalyst because Dupont stopped making the clear I was using. As they promised it worked perfect. I do store my paints and clear indoors in the winter (Michigan). You should be able to buy clear coat by the quart.

I use the automotive epoxy primer sealer over plastic bait repaints and my own baits in Cedar and Mahogany. You can brush in quickly the first coat if you really want to push it in to the grain and shoot a second coat. I reduce the primer by 10% and shoot it with an airbrush with the large tip. I also seal some of my baits in propionate and on those I scuff with 320 and use a light coat of bumper adhesion promoter before the primer. I use the urethane paints with two part clear and it holds up very well and I use them for Muskie. It is a system engineered to work together. You can really play with the paint in layering and mixing colors . I get 2 oz and 4oz plastic bottles from tcp and reduce the paint for the airbrush 2:1. Very few paints spray as fine as urethane. And you can not beat your price, my friend cleaned out thier paint room and I am set for years. good luck and have fun. I do use a good small booth and wear a forced air respirator to be extra safe but in air brush quantities my booth keeps up more than I actually need.

You mentioned the washer was small, some times a larger and or heavier treble belly hook may make the differance. Depending on hook size they make heavier hooks for saltwater and Muskie.

The inserts are grommets that press in to a counter bored hole. They usually have a barrel swivel pass through with one end hanging out for the hook and the other inside the bait with a through wire from nose to tail passing through the swivel to hold it in. The wire has a loop twisted on one end and is pushed through from the head end and then another is twisted at the tail end (tail wrap). Most of those baits do not use screw eyes. There ia a lot of information on that site ,search through wiring. http://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/forumdisplay.php?f=169

You can turn with a lathe with the part off center. It is easier to do with a duplicator attached to the lathe. I am getting ready to try it. There are some tutorials on turning off center on Stripersonline.com surftalk. The basics are you make marks for the centerline as you normally would then make two marks the same distance off center. You turn the part so far off center then move the lathe centers to the oppposite off center mark and complete the turning. The duplicator gives you equal depth of cut so both sides off the oval shape are uniform. It is supposed to be a little touchy to do.

What type of wood is it? Some woods are way more prone to swelling damage then others . Basswood is real bad. I make baits out of White and Red Cedar and some Mahogany. These woods are way less prone to swelling from moisture. I use prop for a sealer and then automotive two part primer sealer for a prime coat. I do not seal the screw eye entry points. It is hard to tell from the picture if it is an adhesion problem or swelling is the bait split as well? I have been using adhesion promoter after the propionate is scuffed and before priming and tests went very well ths season. It is made for helping paint adhesion on flexible bumpers and available in spray cans, a can goes a long way. I fish for Muskie and big Muskie teeth puncture anything so the wood resitance to swelling and paint adhesion is critical.

We are fortunate to have a lot of local bait makers around lake Saint Clair. Many of them are pros and a quite a few hobby bait makers. I have and fish baits from almost all of them. Some have through wire all the way, some screw eyes only and even one maker uses screw eyes at the line tie and body side of the joint with a hook hanger on the belly and a through wired tail. I have not had a failure on ony of them. I have had screw eyes turn with fish but we turn them back straight and keep on fishing them. I build mine with srew eyes using .072 on the baits under six inches and the eight inch and over I use .092. I use Cedar and Mahogany. Through wired is great but usually requires a two piece bait being split in half. These are usually not a lathe turned bait bait, they are usually made in shapers and custom duplicators. There is a lot of information for through wiring lathe turned baits on a Striper site called surftalk under lure building, much of it is geared towards a different style of bait however a lot of the information crosses over depending on your design. good luck and have fun. David

I would try to move the line tie to the nose of the body. I feel the area of the bill behind the line tie acts more like part of the body instead of a longer bill trying to get more depth. Look at a ten inch Nils Master or a WIley Diver. You may have to watch the bill length so you will be able to tune it. If you are going to run a belly hook make sure it on for testing. good luck

I also build Muskie baits. I built a sliding fixture for cutting lip slots on my table saw and use a 80 tooth with raker teeth that cuts leaving a flat bottom for the lip slot. It is I believe .110 kerf. when I tried the .125 which is a standard the slot was to loose.The fixture has adjustable stop blocks at each end that I set with a little slop end to end. I make two quick passes through the saw with the bait pushed each way on the blocks to open the slot up just a little extra. I leave just a little extra to allow for primer and paint.

Army Doc, I use propionate and prime with a two part sealer and use Dupont and Hok base colors And Dupont Chroma Clear. I fish for Muskie and this paint holds up well. The basecoat colors are actually urethane not Laquer. Urethane is more pliable and less brittle. Laquer thinner works great for clean up. You should not use the automotive urethane paints and clears with out a spark proof spray booth. I have a commercial bench top size spray booth with a twelve inch exhaust and it keeps ahead of the airbrushes and my small gun for clearing easily. I wear a respirator and with airbrushing it is plenty. The clear is the nastier part of automotive systems and is what plugs filters fast not designed for this type of system. The urethane paints spray fantastic through all of my brushes and I believe HOKs airbrush paints are reduced with medium reducer at a 2:1 ratio. A lot of baitmakers and custom painters in my area spray the taxidermy laquers and clear with various clears. The nice thing with taxidermy paints are all of the natural colors available in airbrush sized bottles with out having to have quarts of urethane custom mixed which is pricey for a guy painting smaller quantities. Taxidermy paints are also available in water based if you have a marginal ventilation. I would not spray anything with out good ventilation, and a respirator. Water based paints may not have the vapors of solvent paints but you should still protect your lungs. Hope this was helpful and have fun.

I spray all urethane paints. I use two part epoxy sealer/ primer, with urethane paints and Chroma Clear for the topcoat. I run Muskie baits trolling, during tournaments we run 12 to 15 hour days pretty often. A hot bait or preffered color may stay in the water the entire time. I have not had anything hold up as well as the urethane including laquers. I read a lot on this site of paint reactions or clear coat failures. The automotive paints are deigned and engineered to work as a system. On plastic bait repaints I do a quick scotch brite pad and prime and paint. Many of the baits you can spray the urethane and not have a reaction but I play it safe and shoot a light sealer coat. I do not have any trouble with the small batches of sealer and clear by using the one ounce cups. Have fun and it gets a little addicting!

Thad, the HOK intercoat clear should do it as suggested. Dick Nites is a moisture cured urethane, there is also an acid cured urethane used for hardwood floors but it is not as resistant to water. A question I would have is why not stay in a system designed and enginered to work together and shoot an automotive clear. It is a two part system designed to stand a lot of abuse from stone chips, car washes and climate changes. It will spray from an airbrush and you can build up several coats in minutes and it can be handled in a pretty short period of time. I am asuming you have a spray booth since you are spraying urethane paints. Not having a booth would be a draw back for sure. I have been running Muskie baits for years cleared that way and have been using it myself for two years. I use two part automotive epoxy sealer, urethane paints, and automotive clear with out a failure. I know hobby and pro builders here in Michigan that use Dick Nites with great sucess and they are spraying it over Laquer based taxidermy paints.

I trace a master pattern then cut a little outside the line on my band saw. I then use carpet tape or bowl turners double sided tape on a master jig I made out of quartersawn oak with a handle attached. I run it around a flush cutting trim bit in my router table. If you use one of the spiral cut Whiteside bits you will not need to sand. A standard two flute does a nice job as well. After sticking the tape to the master jig press the tape against your jeans to make it a little less sticky so you can pop the finished lip off easier. I can do about twenty bills before I have to change the tape. Be sure to peel the protective film off of the side of the bill that goes against the master. I made a tight clearance table for my router table out of plastic so I can keep good down pressure and still slide the part around the bit easy. Do not rough cut over an 1/8 bigger than the finished part or the router bit tends to want to catch. I tried to attach a photo and found where I has shown this in the past. http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/hard-baits/11444-making-bills-lips.html

West Systems makes an epoxy now that has UV protection. My friend put three coats on a large Teak swim platform (sanding between) and then we shot two coats of Automotive clear over top. It looks amazing. A wood supplier to the boat industry told us about the Epoxy. I do not remember the number for each of the components but my friend still has the cans if anyone is interested I will get the numbers. He bought it in Quarts I am not sure if they offer a smaller can.

I bought cheap swim suits at target. Two different companies both had diamond mesh one fine scale and one large scale. All of the mesh I have that make diamond shape scales usuall make a nicer diamond when streched in one direction. Pull the mesh both ways to pick the pattern you like. triple x large was no more than a medium by the big suit for more mesh.

Search the airbrush web sites. You can get a quick connect for the hose end and get the male side of the quick connect to fit the differant brands of airbrushes.

Has any one tried heating wood before the first soak of propionate? I am wondering if it will decrease the time it takes for the air to quite escaping. I am using Cedar.

Dixiet, I make and heavily fish Muskie lures trolling, up to eighteen hours straight on tournament days. I seal with Propionate and prime with an auto epoxy primer. While first testing I tried Miniwax hardner with Kilz as primer and had failures rather quickly with the pressures of trolling at 4.5. They were not painted or top coated. Most of the guys who I have seen make a large Grandma shaped body style (thin and tall) out of wood have had to ballast the bottom. To be able to run correct casting or trolling it has to naturaly float upright with probably about 3/4 of the body being underwater at rest. Make sure to have all the hardware on when you test. As Fatfingers said they will blow out at trolling speeds or if on the edge be very hard to tune and maintain the tune. A jointed is usually easier to make run than a straight so if the straight runs you should have it. The only time I have seen that not be the case is with the new big Storms. Their straights run in the large and small bill however when I tried the jointed with the small bill it would not tune. The bait is semi transparent and you can see the jointed does not have as much ballast in it. It was fine when I cranked it in my pond with a high speed reel it just would not troll. The bill is small, a larger/wider bill may fix the problem I am going to try that this spring. I make my bodies out of cedar with a very slight tail shape to them. Muskies are followers even trolling and often take the bait from underneath and behind. There teeth tend to grab the wood and sometimes keep the bait from sliding enough to get a good hookset. I have baits with lucky charm teeth broken off and stuck in the wood. The tall tail may spread their mouth open enough to miss the tail hook or keep the bait from sliding for a good hookset, the bait may just twist in their mouth and prove not to be a problem. I do notice in the Fall they hit our big 10" Nils more in the front half then normal almost like they are trying to stun the bigger meal. I have seen big Muskies destroy some heavy duty stuff and I fear they might break the tail. I have seen a lot of bill failures, I would slot it and then use screws and or epoxy especially on a bait that size. It would always make for a fun tale hanging on the wall if it got smashed by a big one. Catching one on your own bait/design is a blast and making and painting them is a lot of fun. The guy at Target thought I was a bubble off center when I was stretching the liner of a xxxlarge swim suit liner and holding it to the light to check the scale pattern!

I only sprayed Createx to practice indoors when I first started. It does not come airbrush ready in my opinion, it would need reducing. I shoot urethane paint thinned for airbrush use and it is thin. A lot of guys here use createx and can tell you the best way to reduce it. I would check the needle size the #3 is probably best all around however for fine detail on small baits and as you get more practice you may go smaller. I spray at 15 to 20psi with the Automotive paints, #3 in my vl and 2 in my Iwata. I would think properly reduced createx would be similar. Do not get frustrated figure it out the painting gets addictive!