lostfisher

Priming and foiling?

21 posts in this topic

"Priming" versus "waterproofing" versus "color basecoating" are often confused. No you don't have to prime or waterproof under foil. However, you do need to waterproof and color basecoat areas that aren't foiled. I waterproof with 50/50 epoxy/acetone over the whole bait, even under foil. It lets you smooth the foil after application, or take it off and reposition it, and it takes care of the non-foil areas at the same time. If you're talking soft balsa, you need every little bit of wood reinforcement you can get, so the epoxy serves two purposes. To me, primer is an intermediate coating over the waterproofing that promotes adhesion of the subsequent color coats. Some guys use a waterproof primer that does dual duty. Some use a white waterproof primer that "does it all". I generally waterproof with 50/50 epoxy/acetone, then put on a white color basecoat and then colors - no primer. As long as I finish with a durable clearcoat, I haven't had problems with paint delamination, etc.

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Lostfisher- I have never 'tin foiled' but under mylar plastic I use my Propionate 'brew' (2-3 coats), let it cure , sand it smooth and glue it without any white primer etc. pete

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Blackjack

When using epoxy under the foil do you have any problems getting a scale texture to roll on it since your using " a skim coat ". I have'nt tried this technique. I like Hazmail use abut 3 coats of prop then sand and foil. I was just wandering.... trying to eliminate a step or at least shorten it.

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"Priming" versus "waterproofing" versus "color basecoating" are often confused. No you don't have to prime or waterproof under foil. However, you do need to waterproof and color basecoat areas that aren't foiled. I waterproof with 50/50 epoxy/acetone over the whole bait, even under foil. It lets you smooth the foil after application, or take it off and reposition it, and it takes care of the non-foil areas at the same time. If you're talking soft balsa, you need every little bit of wood reinforcement you can get, so the epoxy serves two purposes. To me, primer is an intermediate coating over the waterproofing that promotes adhesion of the subsequent color coats. Some guys use a waterproof primer that does dual duty. Some use a white waterproof primer that "does it all". I generally waterproof with 50/50 epoxy/acetone, then put on a white color basecoat and then colors - no primer. As long as I finish with a durable clearcoat, I haven't had problems with paint delamination, etc.

I tried to run a search on waterproofing primers and came up with cellulose propionate pellets disolved in acetone is this the only way?

I've been using a product that is made for repairing saltwater boats that is used for wood rot. It's a two part Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer made by Restor-It that is in a liquid consistency. Basically it's a mix of epoxy,xylene,toluene,keytones,and esters and alcohol. Nice thing about it is it eats away any water that is under the surface of the wood still. I guess this depends on if you buy kiln dried hardwoods or the cheaper stack dried. Thought I'd mention it in case anyone is having problems with blistering etc.

on a different note I just got back from getting some metal screen for creating patterns and possibly templates. After playing around for a second I tried to stamp a lure that had primer that wasn't fully cured with the mesh and it looked pretty damn good. Has anyone ever done this for making scale patterns? I'd imagine you would be limited to the amount of top coats before you wore away the depth.

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Sounds like the Restore-It should work just fine. Solvent or epoxy based primers are waterproof. Water based primers are water resistant when dry but can raise wood grain. Some solvent based primers have a strong odor even when dry. So an epoxy primer is usually a safe bet. Propionate is also a very good waterproofer. There are various good choices. You just need to choose one that makes sense within your build process.

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Hoodaddy,

I skim coat whether I am going to foil or not , when I say skim coat what I do is dip a clean rag into a thinned epoxy mix and rub it on the blank so that it just barely soaks into the wood, then I let it cure overnight, I then foil the bait, texture it ,then epoxy the whole entire bait(seal), I have never had an issue texturing the foil, the skim coat gives the "sealer coat" something to stick to! I used to use a sanding sealer but found that there was a delaminating problem when using different products (epoxy over sanding sealer)

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Sounds like the Restore-It should work just fine. Solvent or epoxy based primers are waterproof. Water based primers are water resistant when dry but can raise wood grain. Some solvent based primers have a strong odor even when dry. So an epoxy primer is usually a safe bet. Propionate is also a very good waterproofer. There are various good choices. You just need to choose one that makes sense within your build process.

thanks for the reply Bob I'm a painter by trade and new to bait making. I just wanted to get clarification as to what a waterproof primer would be considered as.

I've been having a go at repainting $60 lures that were poorly made overseas. I've found that they have delaminated or blistered from too much paint build up or from the joints taking in small amounts of water both are different instances. The joints have a design flaw with no metal sleeve to prevent wear on the wood so water can get in. Reason I've turned to Restor-It is because it penetrates and saturates under the surface(probably just buying me time with the hinged baits). After that I use XIM's 400 aerosol primer for it's great adhesion,then basecoat,finish coat,and then use Devcon 2 ton thinned back with laquer thinner.

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Yeah, I don't know any way to waterproof wood segments so they'll last forever, you just have to keep an eye on it. If you clearcoat with epoxy, avoid sharp edges on the segments because epoxy naturally draws away from them as it cures. It may LOOK covered but it's very thin there. On a $60 bait (Wow, $60!!!) I might consider a moisture cured polyurethane like Dick Nite's Lurecoat. It has more gloss and is very tough, plus it's thin and won't change a lure's weight significantly. Like epoxy, it continues curing for a week or longer to reach max hardness. It does have some handling and storage limitations that epoxy does not. Lots of TU discussions on it, just do a search.

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Another good thing about Dicks is it wont pull away from sharp edges as some clear coats do.

Thanks Blackjack that clarifies it for me.

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I'm workin' with foam...I just foiled my first Krank and covered it with D2T.

My question is,do I sand over the areas that I plan to paint or just spray over the devcon?

By the way...you guys have made foiling a beautiful experience through following ya'lls instructions...Thanks,

Terry Lee

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I think giving the D2T a light sanding to remove the gloss promotes better paint adhesion. I use 400 grit paper. I do mine like Blackjack above does (I think!) - waterproof with D2T/acetone, apply the foil (I use aluminum duct tape), paint the lure, clearcoat with D2T. Some guys add a coat of D2T over the foil and sand it lightly for paint adhesion. I agree that's ideal but I just shoot paint straight onto the foil. Yes, it's easy to knock paint off bare foil if you aren't careful but if you are, it will be OK after you get the clearcoat on the lure.

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CPES is a good(best) sealer but watch out as it does add weight and kill a bit of wood's natural buoyancy. If I'm building from scratch and CPES being cheaper; they would be ideal as sealer.

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Deepsessions,

I make jointed baits, and am curious about Restor-it. I've seen it used by painters on jobs, but never used it myself.

How far into the wood does it penetrate? Right now, I put a drop of crazy glue into each of the hinge holes in the bait sections, and the redrill with a piece of hinge wire to restore the hole.

Is the Restor-it expensive? We use a lot of Bondo for repairing old jambs, window frames, and woodwork in general, but it's relatively cheap.

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Thanks BobP.....

SO IF I SAND THE D2T over entire bait (400 GRIT),PAINT TOP AND BOTTOM SECTIONS OF THE BAIT (LEAVING THE SIDES WITH THE FOIL SHOWING)...ONCE I CLEAR COAT AGAIN WITH D2T THE LUSTER WILL RETURN OVER THE FOILED AREA?

I was not sure if I should scuff up an area that I wasn't going to cover with paint,in fear that the sand paper marks may show once clear coat was applied.

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Hawghunna, once you apply another clearcoat, any sanding marks willvanish.

I like some kind of sealer before foiling,,,I've repaired some fairly popular unsealed lures that had some wood rot due to water finding it's way beneath the foil once the topcoat was voided. With Balsa I use something that improves the strength of the wood; there are several choices that all work, and with harder woods, I use a coat of Dicknite's topcoat.

Dean

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On a $60 bait (Wow, $60!!!)
That is remarkable isn't it, Bob? I find it really interesting how things have really progressed at hyper speed in the last three years. The amazing thing is that many of the custom baits sold are actually worth more than $60 because of the quality and art included in each one. Now of course, a person has to decide if he or she is willing to tie a pile of $20 bills to a fishing line, but some of the stuff now being produced by the basement guys really amazes me. We're witnessing a sort of revolution in building, paint and design techniques, and new materials being tried. Many of the baits that appear on these boards will be remarkable for many many years to come, in my opinion.

Hawghunna, the sanding marks will disappear.

Also note, that in my experience, only Devcon will adhere properly when trying to seal the paint over the foil. Envirotex tends to delaminate under harsh fishing conditions in hot weather for some reason. I know seal the foil with Devcon and then often apply Envirotex over the Devcon to finish the deep clearcoat finish.

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I'm really not surprised some Japanese baits by small volume "noted builders" go for $60 - especially considering the dollar/yen exchange rate :( The same high prices pertain to Japanese reels souped up with custom parts and tweaked by noted reel smiths. I think the price is more due to fans' appreciation of the esthetics of the product and its celebrated maker versus more practical concerns.

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