25 replies to this topic
Posted 16 December 2007 - 02:17 PM
For what its worth...
I took rjbass's advice and bought a gallon of Minwax sanding sealer to seal wood bait bodies after carving them and prior to sealing them.
I read the can and found that the stuff doesn't even need to be stirred before application. In my opinion, that's probably an advantage because it means that the stuff has not suspended material (which would normally need to be stirred and dissolved prior to use).
I'm thinking it should penetrate deeper than other sanding sealers because of that property.
I tried it last night.
I submerged baits in the stuff and let them "soak" for about 10 to 15 minutes each. As they soaked, you could actually see bubbles rising very slowly from the baits as the material soaked deeply into the wood.
For musky class baits, this is important because the teeth often breach the clearcoat, the paint and the wood itself. Without a sealer that penetrates deeply into the bait, any water which enters the bait can and often will run throughout the entire bait...and we all know that is a bad thing.
When the baits were done soaking, I hung them up by the tail hook for about 15 minutes and the wiped off the excess sanding sealer.
Later, I found that the finish left behind was easy to buff up a bit with light sand paper. I have high hopes for this stuff, because it is so similar to the other sanding sealer I used to use, but can no longer find.
Thanks for the tip, rjbass.
Posted 16 December 2007 - 06:02 PM
i have been using lacquer sanding sealer for years. you will enjoy the results. primer adhere well and the finishes are much smoother. good luck. we use mc donald and white in canada. cheep and efficient.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 01:38 AM
I've carved about 8 or 9 baits in the last few days. I've been leaving them soak overnight in the sealer. I used poplar and the sealer seems to permeate the entire bait if you soak it long overnight. I don't know for sure, but I drilled a few of them to insert weights and it seems like the sealer is clear through the baits. That should make it harder for water to run through the bait if the clear coat is breached by hooks or teeth.
I also made a few more baits from pine and they also seemed to soak clear through. I'm going to soak a couple of test pieces of poplar and pine over night and then cut them in half to see if I my hunch is correct.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 02:09 AM
very cool. I never knew SS would penetrate that much.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 08:51 AM
Typically, the solvents/liquids in sealer will penetrate, but the solids won't.
I don't know, since Minwax doesn't need to be stirred, if the solids are in solution, or if there's some other magic chemical that would soak into the wood. If so, it would surely make balsa a lot stronger. But maybe at the cost of bouyancy.
I use Minwax, too ( thanks Nathan), but I've never soaked my lures. I just dip, hand to dry, sand with 220, dip, sand again, and then prime. I also use Krylon primer (thanks again Nathan) as a primer/sealer.
But then I seat my hook hangers and eye ties in epoxy, and epoxy the whole bait when I'm done.
Having said that, when I used rattle cans for primer, paint, and clearcoat, I used to just hang the lures to dry after I used them, and then shoot another clearcoat onto them. I always thought water intrusion was a fact of life with wood baits, something you just learned to deal with.
I didn't think you could make a wood bait water proof. It would be cool.
Please report you findings. It's great to have a testing lab on the site. )
Posted 21 December 2007 - 10:56 AM
Guys I experimented with sanding sealer back in the day, If you are going to clear with epoxy I had numerous problems with baits being left out in the sun. When left out in direct sunlight a bubble or air pocket would form between the sanding sealer top layer and the clearcoat. When I stopped using the sanding sealer the problem ceased
Posted 21 December 2007 - 11:46 AM
I also ahd a problem with paint adhersion and sanding sealers. At first it seemed to stick great but after a couple of coats of paint, or clearcoat, a day or two in the open air, the paint pulls away from the body or splits and cracks. This has happened to many lures of mine and is the culprit behind the L.S.U. lure I posted a few weeks ago.Now I just stick to the clear laquer. No problems with that. By the way, I do plenty of sanding between coats and if Fatfingers is getting through penetration in the wood with Minwax, I may just have to try sealer again, one at a time though.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 01:04 PM
i never had a problem with the s.s. i dip in for 2 minutes. let dry then dip in white lacquer primer. after drying i san do the colors then apply my clear,,, new lustre. never had a lifting issue yet. even with water absortion after multiple fish, and water penetration. i use cedar or mahogany for woods. hope this helps a little.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 02:21 PM
I have been using Minwax sanding sealer for a while now and it has never failed me. I put a thin coat of epoxy over the top, prime, paint and top coat. I have never had a problem with paint or top coat adhesion or peeling or anything. I have had muskies bite through the finish into the wood (which is the nature of the beast) and the baits never swell from water damage or lose their integrity at all for that matter.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 03:25 PM
how long do you let the sanding sealer cure? there must be different times with different woods. What kind of clear are you using for a final finish?
I know in the past when I've shot clear woodwork I only used laquer sanding sealer with a laquer finish because the laquer burns in. Is Minwax a solvent or laquer base? Seems like the final clear coat really holds down quite a bit for most.
here's a link to a great aerosol laquer sanding sealer (make sure you are outside or have ventilation and are away from any pilot lights!)
Posted 21 December 2007 - 04:18 PM
This is two Private Messages I sent to FF this morning. I have deleted a couple of lines on non importance. As you will read the two you will see that what I thought I knew is now all foggy again. Some one tell me if I am correct.
OK here are the messages, in order.
PM to FF
This is what inspired me to contact you. I did a lot of the same testing last year that you are doing now. I was testing with Propionate and Balsa. I felt like I knew the wood was being penetrated deep below the surface. When I would sand it it would be very tough and drilling was tougher but I get much better holes. I thought I would see how deep it was penetrating so I soaked for 3 days and let it dry for 1 day. Then I cut a cross section and I couldn't see where it started and stopped. The wood in the dead center felt a little softer but I could not see a start and stop place. Then I thought I would carry the test a step further. I bought some Rit dies and put that in the Propionate solution. It worked perfect and died the wood great. (left it in for 4-6 days) Then I let it dry and cut into it. Not at all what I expected. It was only on the surface of the bait and just in the wood pores on the surface. I thought for sure it would have been half the way through the wood.
Back to the drawing board with this one. I bought a Food Saver vacuum sealer and an adapter for a half gallon Mason jar. I made a new batch of sealer with the Rit die. (dies have been soaked in acetone then strained through 2 coffee filters to get just the pure die, then mixed with the Propionate) I submerged the wood in the solution and turned on the vacuum It looked like a volcano erupting. Most of the air in the wood started to come out of the wood pours so fast it looked like I had hooked my air compressor to and air stone and dropped it in. (fill the jar only about 2/3 or it will suck the bubbling propionate solution into the Food Saver) I released the pressure and ran it again and more air came out and then again. Less air each time. I thought for sure I had penetrated the wood to the core. I let it dry for 2 days and then cut into it. The wood felt just like all the other test I had run. The die was still only on the surface of the wood and just a tiny bit below.
My test are inconclusive to me because I am still not sure if the acetone/propionate can penetrate the wood and the wood is able to filter out the dies or what. Or if the Propionate is not penetrating anything but the surface.
My last test was to use a digital gram scale bought off of ebay and see how much the weight difference would be with same size cuts of wood. I started by weighing the wood and then marking them. (to eliminate the variable in the wood density) I dipped one in and swirled it around for a few short time then pulled it out. The other I put in the solution with the vacuum and put the pressure to it. I weighed both of them while they were still damp with sealer. There was a large difference in the weights. The one from the vacuum weighed about 4 times more that the other piece of wood. (I am talking only about the difference once the weight of the wood is subtracted out) I let both dry for about 30 min and the weight difference became smaller. Then I weighed them the next day and the one that had the vacuum had a final weight that was twice the weight of the piece that was just swirled.
What do I think I have learned about Balsa and propionate. It is very hard to penetrate with propionate/sealer. (I think it would be very hard to penetrate with any sealer) Propionate does make the wood very, very, hard and does penetrate some.
OK, a light just went off in my head. I will start a new message to you.
New message starts here
Does the vacuumed wood have a rate of penetrate 4x deeper than that, that was just swirled?
Propionate is mixed up with about 8%-10% pellets and 90% acetone. The propionate pellets weigh a lot more that the acetone. (might be 2x more?) (9 to 1 ratio. 1 part prop. weighs same as 2 part acetone.) propionate is 20% of the weight of the solution. Correct? When it evaporates it 90% of the volume would evaporate but only 80% of the weight would be gone. When th
If the weight of the wood with the propionate/acetone sealer when still wet is 4x grater than the other than the other that was just swirled then when it evaporates there would be a lot less of a difference in the final weight. I think the penetration of the wood is exponential and the wood was penetrated 4x deeper than the other that was just swirled.
I think I am getting much better penetration than I originally thought.
Here is a little more info on propionate I didn't put in the PM. It dissolves 100% in acetone and once dissolved it never needs to be stirred or shook because it suspends in the solution. I had pictures of the bubbles coming out of the wood prior to my hard drive being destroyed.
The bubbles look massive because in a vacuum the air is expanded. This makes a tiny bubble become very large. This process will cut down on the deep sealing time of a balsa bait from a few hours to just 20 or 30 min.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 05:27 PM
So with all that said do you feel that the propionate is a worthy sealer of your wood. I don't use balsa, mostly AYC and some pine, and I have been trying the propionate but have not fished that many propionate sealed baits yet, and now it is winter. I used to use VAl-Oil, and like it a lot, but it is getting harder to come by and you need to wait much longer before you prime as it takes a while to dry completely. I am making thru wired plugs for salt water so it is not a completely sealed plug. Just curious on your thoughts as to if you still think it is a worthy sealer or not after your tests results. Thanks. Paul
Posted 21 December 2007 - 06:55 PM
I to use Min Wax. If you let air into the can, too much, it starts to get a very heavy film on it. Doug
Posted 21 December 2007 - 07:34 PM
Minwax has great sealers . Another one that I use is the waterbased polycrylic by minwax in the blue can. It comes in different finishes. I use the clear gloss.it looks like milk in the can but dries clear and very hard.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 07:37 PM
If I were you making salt water baits, I would use boiled linseed oil. I know many of the striper guys use this as a sealer.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 09:08 PM
Thanks I have tried it but I feel Val oil is a step above the BLO, but the BLO is used widely by many and does work. I am real curious with the propionate since I am trying it and hope it is all it is cracked up to be.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 10:39 PM
Yes, after all of that, I do feel the propionate is a worthy sealer.
I have only tested it on Balsa and Paulownia.
The Propionate does seem to penetrate more than I thought and it locks into the pours of the wood. Then bonds itself to each prior coat with each dip. It will not peel or flake. Once the wood is sealed, it is sealed. (until one of those toothy fish drives a tooth half the way into it)
The soft wood baits will be very ridged and minimal exterior weight. The painting surface is perfect with no air escaping, causing little craters or pits.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 11:09 PM
Thanks, Palmetto. I got you PM and responded.
I've used sanding sealer previously, just not the Minwax brand. I've primed the baits directly over the sealer with Krylon Fusion spray cans, which can actually bond to plastic. Its the only primer I've been using for quite some time now and I've had no issues with the primer separating from the sanding sealer.
The Krylon Fusion dries fast too and it provides a nice smooth surface but its also a bit thick so it has the ability to fill in minor aberrations in the wood. I use two coats and allow them time to dry before painting.
Posted 22 December 2007 - 01:06 AM
Looks like that vacuum idea really does the job, with the amount of bubbles that you reported.
Did you use a wire cage or something to hold the balsa completely submerged? If not, when you switched the vacuum off, it probably just sucks chamber air back in again, plus a little liquid.
When you switch the vacuum off, leave the bait caged and submerged for another five or ten minutes before removing. The remaining air inside the balsa will now be compressed. The space left by the compressed air will be taken by the liquid. You could even put the chamber under positive pressure at this point for even deeper penetration.
While the vacuum is on, the liquid is prevented from gaining access, as the traffic (air) is going the other way. Even when the bubbles stop, this only means that equilibrium has been reached. Other than a little capillary action, there is nothing to cause the liquid to penetrate. Only when the vacuum is removed and the balsa held submerged, does penetration occur.
I hope this all makes sense.
I’ve had a few more thoughts on the subject.
(A) Submerge. Vacuum on until bubbles stop. Vacuum off. Stand for five minutes.
( Remove from liquid and while still wet, using a sharp needle, push several holes through to the centre of the balsa, NOT right through. Up to you, but I would not use an electric drill close to all those explosive fumes.
© repeat (A).
I don't think that the dye was filtered out. Try this method with the dye and see if it works.
Posted 23 December 2007 - 03:31 PM
I use a item like a potato masher to hold the bait submerged. This is a coiled wire that has a shaft that rises above the liquid so it will press the bait under when I put the lid on. Some baits I have to hook the eyelet to the wire and then it will pull the bait under. Once the vacuum is removed the bait will stay submerged until I take it out.
I feel like the bubbles will expand to 10x or 20x their normal size when escaping under the vacuum. This gives the appearance of all air being removed form the wood, in reality it is probably more like 5% to 15% being removed. I don't think any sealer would be able to penetrate this good just by soaking.
This simple process makes the balsa very strong and light. I need to do some impact test to see if a bait would with stand being slapped on the water at 100+ MPH. I think the bait should survive but have not had the nerve to slap one that hard yet.
I'll see if the needle through it will help the propionate penetrate in areas. This could be very helpful if it were to create stronger cross sections. It might work like little support beams through the bait.