Elaborate on mathematical modeling of lures IMO…..
, Dec 20 2007 01:38 PM
26 replies to this topic
Posted 20 December 2007 - 01:38 PM
Hello, I have been reading TU for about 1 months now, I am extremely green on basically everything when it comes to making custom lures. I'm not sure what this topic will bring about, but i think most will find it interesting to some degree. I am a mold designer, that makes plastic ejection molds, along with compression, and composite molds. When I first seen your post I thought you were going to get into 3d CAD models of crank baits. I have attached a very simple model I drew. This you can find out center of gravitys mass related issues threw catia. Im not sure if anyone on here is fimialar with catia orr any other 3d cad software, but im sure at some point manufactures have to draw the lures in in some form. This file then can be sent to a cnc machine that tool paths can be created from. Also different locations for weights can be added drawn in locations, without having to actually drill any holes.
I have attached 3 pics of the files, cause IMO a thread isn't a thread without pics! Any thoughts out there.
Posted 20 December 2007 - 02:03 PM
Time for Vodkaman to confuse us all.........again:lol:
Posted 20 December 2007 - 03:10 PM
First things first... Welcome to TU
, the center of tackle junkie universe. It looks like your going to fit in well with this crowd.
Like the way you just jump in and run with an idea.
I believe your on the right track but, you also have to account for the fact that not everything is a pure science; art and nature also figures into it.
Posted 20 December 2007 - 03:10 PM
Kubotek, Dave aka Vodkaman uses Catia and I am sure he will elaborate
Posted 20 December 2007 - 04:05 PM
Somehow I believe guessing that the handmade lures (ie...rapalas, storms) tested and tunned by hand must then be CMM (cordenant measuring machine.) and a report must be made of the surface location in a given space. From that you can bring the surfaces into CAD. I know i could take a lure made by one of you guys, and get it CMM'd then take that and get a aluminum mold made of that. This then could create an exact model of that handmade lure. Also you can make slight modification of that handmade lure and see the differences. I dono just a thought. What would be interesting the mold could be a multi cavity.
I dono maybe im looking to much into this.
Posted 20 December 2007 - 09:17 PM
Would definitely be neat, but even if it's the same weight and balanced the same, it's just not the same as a wood bait for some reason. Also, how much goes into molding the baits nce you get a mold? Is it reasonable for most of us?
Posted 20 December 2007 - 09:59 PM
Thanks Clamboni. We should collaborate, I’ll send my technical posts over and you can translate them for TU!Bruce. Nature is one big science lab. Art is fooling natures creation with my own.Kyle. Welcome to TU. Wow, a fellow tube jockey! Just about everything that I model, goes over to you guys to generate the production tools. You are the guys that tell me, “you cannot do this, you cannot do that, the radius is too small, the pocket is too deep etc”. I would locate a smiley face here, to show that I am only joking, but smilies are not for me.There are two subjects within the title ‘mathematical modeling’. One is CFD’s (computational fluid dynamics),which is a software that will take a computer design and apply flow to it and determine the result. CFD’s are still relatively in their infancy, but the day will come (very soon) when you will see your lure design idea swimming on your screen, long before you get your tools out. With CNC machines (computer numeric control), you might not even have to do that. Hell, you can even get a robotic arm to paint it. The second definition of mathematical modeling is what we do, basically, drawing in 3D.Yes, we can manually carve and test prototypes. When we have something that works, we can collect the point data with some kind of digitizer and make a 3D model. This in turn is sent to DelW, who will send me an aluminium mould the very next day! These point digitizers are not even beyond the average designer. I have seen them advertised as optional extras on small CNC milling machines.I’m not sure how the big boys operate. But I would imagine that at the very beginning of a project, some hand carving would take place. They may well go straight in with a computer model and rough a few out on the CNC. If I owned a CNC, I would not be doing any more hand carving. I would CNC a block of wood, make an RTV (rubber) splash and cast a foamy (expanded polyurethane foam) for testing.From a CAD (computer aided design) designer point of view, working with point data on such a fiddly little subject would be a real pain, I would sooner model it from scratch, taking a few measurements and eyeball it. Catia V5 is a wonderful tool. The generative surface design is a dream come true. If you construct the models correctly, you can make a change to one of the first surfaces and everything drawn after that will be automatically changed. In other words, I can draw a basic lure shape, surface it up, add the lip, eyes, hooks, everything. I can then go back to the original sketch of the profile and alter the length, depth, thickness, radii of profile. The finished model will instantaneously re-draw to my new design. AWESOME!!!!I hope you enjoy TU (tackle addicts anonymous) and come forward with some outlandish theories and innovative designs.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 12:14 AM
Vodkaman... I got a question for you.. First im lost in Translation on the engineering side.... anyway.. THE ROBOT arm got me thinkin.. Im a video game junkie.. is it possible to hook my arm up to those video game suits that they use to copy player's movements like in Madden Football video game.. EA Sports trys to make it as real as possible and the some of the players dress up in some kind of computer suit and it put's there exact movements in the program.. Im curious to know if that possible for a robot to paint the exact way I paint .. kinda like copying someone's hand writing.. IF THIS IS STUPID QUESTION!!! Let the games begin..I can take it...
Posted 21 December 2007 - 03:11 AM
I think I get what you mean. I'm not sure if this is still true today, but I know a few years ago, they used to train the robots in the car industry by manipulating the spray arm by hand. The control system would record or 'remember' the movements and replay at the appropriate efficient speed. Any errors or inefficiencies in the 'route' would be editted out, like editing a CNC path.
I'm sure the 'big boys' are using this type of technology or something similar, but I don't think you will find one on the shelves of the supermarket any time soon.
The computing tecnology to do this sort of thing is not that hi-tech these days. A computer program operating a bunch of servos, switches and actuators, could be stepper motors or hydraulics, just got to learn some.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 03:47 AM
I think there is a slight over lapping of technologies going on... The pure programming of robotics mixed with the ergonomic replication of gaming software to provide a physical model of what is humanly possible for a simulated character. There are suits with sensers mounted externally about every set distance apart that can be displayed as a motion to that character model.
Say a certain scoccer player used a distinctive style to strike the ball. By having him/her wearing the suit and preforming this act, a computer motion model could be constructed.
I think the Rookie was wanting to model himself painting a given lure, a specific pattern, and have it then programed into a 4 axis robotic arm to produce "perfect copies" of said lure...
Oooch, it's time for an ice cold MEDICATION break. Happy to see there appear to be no long term effects from the actone.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 04:22 AM
Bruce, that is pretty much how it works but without the glove.
Thanks for #& @^*# your concern, jus @$@%^ t a few twitches!!!!
Posted 21 December 2007 - 05:01 AM
There are moments when, in a battle of witts, I feel totally unarmed... Does this make my butt look big???
I can almost see you sitting on the other side of the pond just shakin' your head and saying, "Crazy yank". I've seen it before by your country men.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 05:07 AM
Perceptive, but I do have a silly grin on my face.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 05:09 AM
Posted 21 December 2007 - 05:30 AM
Silly grin! It's a good thing.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 05:40 AM
Perceptive, but I do have a silly grin on my face.
Just guessing.... Maybe?
Well, alright then, talk about a derailed thread. I think this is a excellent example. Ha ha ha. It's only 4:42 am on my side of the world...
Posted 21 December 2007 - 08:38 AM
The real question is which of the three is Dave (aka "Vodkaman")
Posted 21 December 2007 - 08:53 AM
I Believe that you are looking for a robot such as a moto man! http://www.motoman.com/
We currently run these at my work. We water jet parts. Are model is a little different then this one. I know for a fact that are soft ware doesn't allow you to do what your asking. Im sure you can get some that will. But the cost would be out of this world. We payd 80,000 USD for the software that we have now. Its a very simple program also. The robots them selfs are cheap. The moto man HP50 we have cost $60,000 with the CNC controller.
Those could be used to paint. BUTTTTTtttt............................IMO youd want to have http://www.faro.com/...tent=pro&item=2
With this, you could track your airbrush moves. Now it be not practical to have this do to cost. But if you had udles of money that you wanted to throw around you could do that. These are designed to get points in space. The robot arms always knows where it is. so as you move it to a point it then nows where that point is. You have to still get them or you to re write the code to allow the software to record the amount of air pressure to paint your allowing threw. If you were a small company, im positive you could get R&D money that would fund all of this. I know this because my work is huge into R&D, But the cost of this would be clearly not possible for a small lure builder.
Its to bad a (THE BIG GUYS) Like rapala isnt on the site.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 09:24 AM
Not a painter myself, but I have just been waiting for their input. I suspect that the most enjoyable part of lure making (apart from cashing the occasional cheque) is applying the paint and seeing the block of wood come to life.
Clemmy, the clown is my uncle Trev and his wife Anne. The dude in the middle is Emlyn Hughes, ex Liverpool soccer player. Trev is one of my heroes. He quit a high paying exec job to become a professional party clown and makes a descent living at it too.
I wanted to demonstrate what a grin was, he never stops grinning. A real happy guy.
Posted 21 December 2007 - 03:02 PM
Well the more I think about it.. I guess I would rather program it to rub my wife's back than paint a lure!!! Think of all the time we could saved Men across the world...