Palmetto Balsa

Balsa Crankbaits Action? or inaction?

24 posts in this topic

Friends tell me the Brians Bees deep divers (Bee20, Bee22, and Bee24) lose there action once they dive to the depth they are designed to hit.

I have always thought this was just the stretch of the line and resistance of the water against the line that caused them to feel like they have lost their action.

With what we know about weight placement, buoyancy, and the new enlightenment V-man had brought to the table (new to me). http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11890&highlight=pressure Page 2.

Could it be that a wood crankbait, with its superior action over plastic*, would have a much reduced action at deeper depths? Does the greater pressure cause the density of the wood to increase, in-turn causing the center of gravity to change and dull the action? Same way a balsa bait loses action if one applies too much epoxy as a top coat.

If the pressure does effect the action, would it effect a plastic crank near the same?

If it does change the action would it be enough to kill the action?

How many custom painted crankbait are on eBay today?:whistle:

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:yeah::yeah: If I could get my crankbaits to shake like that, I'd be in business!!! :yeah::yay::yay:

As far as depth being an issue on that, I don't think so (but by no means am I a scientist). The added pressure would force any air inside the bait to be condensed into a smaller area. But even then, how much air are we talking about in a sealed wooden crankbait? And 20 foot depths is not a big change. Each 30 feet in depth of water you traverse, is one additional atmosphere of pressure. So what you feel right now, is one atmosphere. Add another one on and that's the pressure at 30 feet. Not much difference, really.

If anything, hollow plastic crankbaits would have more of an effect at deeper depths as their air is contained in the middle of the bait and I would think that there's a lot more air. Again though, at depths of 20 feet, I just don't think pressure is coming into play.

I would think that once it achieves its depth that it is designed to run at, that there is a lot less resistance against the bait, as it is no longer able to track downwards. It is now, instead of diagonally (both vertically and horizontally) moving, it is simply moving on one plane (horizontally).

Just my :twocents:

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That thing is crazy. I mean, its hard to find a good bass lake with fish suspended at 25 feet! How does it keep its wobble at that extreme angle when retrieving it.

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I too find this hard to believe. As stated above, it's only 20 feet. Consider a diver, swimming 200 feet down, we've all seen the documentaries. Never have I heard mention that moving around is more difficult at depth and they look fairly agile to me.

It was an interesting point though and I have thought about it in the past. The pressure is from all around and is therefore self cancelling (pressure from the back is cancelled by pressure from the front).

I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the damping affect that the line has. This is more likely to be the correct explanation. The line is the limiting factor when it comes to depth. This is due to the line curving down to the lure. Once the curve angle reaches the lures tow line angle, the lure swims horizontal.

Before the lure reaches this depth, the line is straighter to the lure and any 'pull' is felt strongly. As the line bows, any pull is damped out by the belly of the line pulling across the water. Hope this makes sence.

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The most rod shaking deep divers I've fished are balsa, like the Brian's Bee 24 or the Sisson P-20 and I think that's due to weight distribution, particularly the lower center of gravity in a balsa versus a plastic bait, just like on shallow divers. I do think the line at depth and at distance doesn't transmit thump very easily, especially the 8 and 10 lb line often used on deep divers. But I don't think the pressure at depth is so great as to "crush" wood or the air inside, else we'd be seeing mangled balsa deep divers coming back to the boat...and we don't. It wouldn't surprise me if the added pressure and water density at depth dampens the wiggle at bit. Back to PB's question, I think balsa and plastic deep divers will act the same, all other build features held equal (but they never are).

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The natural elasticity of the line will also have a damping effect. But that would affect all depths, not just deep divers. The more line out, the more elastic damping occurs.

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If I'm not mistaken, Brian's deep cranks have straight lips. I find baits with straight lips kind of dead at any depth. Maybe braided line would be a better opiton for deep cranking. Might reduce the effects from line stretcha and resistance.

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I think this one is solved. Thanks guys.

The Chaterbait will just about shake the screws out of you reel when you fish weed lines or run it like a spinner bait. Then when you drop it like a jig into 30+ feet you don't feel as much pulse/thump when you pull it. I think that the line resistance, and stretch dampen the feel of the action and not the action itself. The added pressure can't compress the chatterbait.

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Imagine a balsa crankbait which you could fit tight in a steel sheet envelope. Would the air inside the wood be compressed? Or imagine a mini submarine with people on bord, which could dive to big depth. Are people inside the submarine affected by the great pressure of the ocean at such depth?

I think that a crankbait running at considerable depth would be affected by the pressure (would shrink) only it the topcoat allows it. And that depends also on how strong the wood is.

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If I'm not mistaken, Brian's deep cranks have straight lips. I find baits with straight lips kind of dead at any depth. Maybe braided line would be a better opiton for deep cranking. Might reduce the effects from line stretcha and resistance.

Braided line is also my preference deep cranking - - especially when fishing around really deep cover like brushpiles or stumpfields....you just have to feel what that bait is doing to really finesse it around that kind of stuff.

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I've tried braid for deep cranking, but the lakes I fish are clear with rock, and braid doesn't like rock.

I use 10lb BPS flouro for all my cranking. I can feel everything. And I think the flouro deals with rock better than braid.

For Crigs, I use 15lb braid with a swivel and 10lb flouro leader.

I also use braid with a flouro leader for Ikas, Senkos, and with a mono leader for topwaters. The braid floats, which keeps it out of the rocks when I'm on the bottom. The flouro sinks, and, if I'm dead sticking on a slack line, or picking out a backlash, the flouro can drop into the rocks, and get stuck. Grrrr!!!!

I love braid. I also love flouro. I guess I'm just easy. :o)

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I've tried braid for deep cranking, but the lakes I fish are clear with rock, and braid doesn't like rock.

Same kind of waters here - - I just use a leader on the braid, and it absorbs all the nasties of the rocks without giving up the fine diameter of the braid.

The 20 lb. PowerPro I use is about the same diameter as 8 lb. test - and it breaks at close to 25 lbs. That means I can get super deep and still fish around cover that I wouldn't even think about throwing small mono near.

People sink a lot of cedars and blackjacks around here, and it's murder on line if you get a hot bass that wants to go back in after he's hooked. :)

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Think about it...

There's a reason suspending baits will sink at certain temps. The lower you go, the greater the pressure (up to the thermocline) think about pulling a lure through a pool of thin weight oil...then doing the same with a higher viscosity...

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At about 200 feet deep plastic crankbaits implode or crack and fill with water. At deep depths the water is cold and my flourocarbon gets brittle and breaks at my knots. Also these findings are based on Lake Tahoe fishing, Macknaw lake trout and the elevation is about 6200 feet above sea level. We use wire line to cut the water to get that deep and feel the wiggle and avoid line stretch.

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At 200 feet deep you're at over 6 ATM's of pressure. That's some serious pressure at that point and will cause lure failures due to shrinking air. I would think plastic baits would implode, as there is no room for the vaccuum in the hollow body.

At 33 feet, the bait is subject to 2 ATMs. That pressure is nothing. Take a bait without hooks and squeeze it tightly in one hand, that is roughly the equivelent of 2 ATM's. Place it in the palm of one hand and squish with the other, and that's equivelent to about 3 ATM's or 99 feet deep. Stepping on it would be roughly equal to 8 ATM's or 264 feet deep. I would think that stepping on a crankbait would be a point of failure for almost all baits.

An interesting study that I will have to do however. I will completely seal up a balsa bodied bait with Decvon 2 ton and after curing, will place in a jar of water (weight will be added to the bait so that it will sink). I will then vacuum seal the jar and see how much air will be released and if there is any failure in the bait. I know it isn't THAT scientific, but it might help with a clearer answer.

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Senkoman85,

You think that air would shrink in a plastic hollow crankbait. Does air shrink in a submarine? The pressure of the water is applied to the wall of the crankbait or submarine, not to the air inside them. And yes, plastic crankbaits can implode at high pressure, because their walls are plastic, not steel.

About your study.

Do you think that if you reverse the conditions (from 8 atm. instead of 1 atm, compared with 0 atm instead of 1 atm. the results could be compared? Not mentioning that it may be difficult to reach 0 atm. in a jar. I would think twice before I would make such a test.

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RoFish,

I was basing my facts on scuba diving facts.

If, for example, you blow a balloon up on the surface and take it down 60 feet (3 atm's) then it will not be the same volume...the air compresses. It also happens inside your lungs.

If you were to fill a balloon up with air at 60 feet (3 atm's) and bring it to the surface, it would explode before it reached the surface due to the expanding air. This is why you must exhale while ascending from the depths, to avoid blowing a lung out.

I'm unsure if a submarine is a good example, I am not familiar with submarines and could be wrong. I think an airplane would be a better example for what you are trying to say, as an airplane climbs higher into the atmosphere, there is a thinning of oxygen and more pressure applied. Because the cabin pressure is regulated, you don't notice it but there is tremendous force on the outside. Are submarines built the same way, so that one wouldn't notice an increase in pressure?

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I think you are perfectly right with your balloons examples. And the airplane example is the same example as a submarine. The difference is that in the case of a submarine, the pressure is applied from outside to the wall, while in an airplane flying high in the sky the pressure is from inside out. Both submarine and airplane preserve the pressure that humans are used to. This is not exactly right, since you sometimes feel your ears sore in an airplane. But your ears would feel a very light change in the pressure of the surrounding air.

Something similar happens with crankbaits deep under the water.

What I was saying is that from 8 or 6 atm to 1 atm (the pressure at sea level) there is a much higher difference compared to the difference from 1 atm. to 0 atm (maximum lack of pressure that you could obtain in a jar, using some vacuum devices). I think you could not get 0 atm with usual vacuum devices.

Moreover, a crankbait's topcoat can withstand high pressure mainly because it leans on the wood (the deeper the crankbait is supposed to run, the strongest the wood should be), while with your test (pressure from inside out) the topcoat would lean on nothing.

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I kind of get what you are trying to say Senkoman85. The plane and the sub are equally good for your analogy.

When the human body dives, as you explained, the body is compressed. The air in the lungs is compressed. This is equivalent to a soft, flat sided balsa body. The body pressures balance out when the pressure inside equals the pressure outside.

In a sub, the pressure inside essentially stays at one atmosphere. The enormous pressure on the outside is absorbed by the structure of the hard shell.

In a plane, again, the presure stays essentially at one atmosphere, the enormous pressure on the INSIDE is held in by the rigid structure of the hard shell.

Both these analogies are the equivalent of the hollow hard plastic body. Eventually, a depth will be reached where the pressure loads will be greater than the rigid structure resisting them and the body will implode.

In reality, on aircraft, they reduce the internal pressure to the equivalent of 10,000 ft. This is why your ears pop as they regulate the pressure and you feel tired and occasionally gasp for an extra breath for no apparent reason. By introducing this pressure drop, the difference between the inside pressure and the outside vacuum is reduced and thus the loads on the airframe are reduced.

Also, a submariner does not have to worry about the bends, he does not have to control his rate of ascent, as he is working at a constant pressure of 1 atmosphere. If a regular diver rises too fast. Certain gasses start to come out of the blood as bubbles. Exactly the same way as a bottle of coke starts to fizz when you open the cap. The sudden reduction in pressure causes the dissolved carbon dioxide to come out of the solution as gas.

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Vman, I did not know that the pressure in an airplane is the one which you normally have at 10 000 ft. That explains the problems with the ears.

Your explanation is very logical.

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You guys explain this so logically, even I can understand it. Thanks pete

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