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Utra deep divers
25 replies to this topic
Posted 15 February 2008 - 05:39 PM
Has anyone made a crank that can dive to say 25-30ft? I fish a very deep clear water lake(deepest point 236ft) and most of the big fish hold in the 25-35ft zone in the summer and I want a crank that can get to them. Jigs are to unrealistic for the water clarity which is 20-30ft sometimes. Oh and I am talking about bass here.
Posted 15 February 2008 - 07:59 PM
Try counting down a 3/4oz chatterbait, or a 3/8oz sworming hornet with a jr. fluke trailer.
Posted 15 February 2008 - 10:48 PM
That was one of my options yes, but the sworming hornet is something I never thought of, thanks! Anyone else?
Posted 15 February 2008 - 11:00 PM
I haven't made any crankbaits but Luhr Jensen & Rapala have lures that they claim dive down 25-30 feet. You can always try to long line troll with some clip on weights to get a lure down that deep.
If you have a good graph that picks up the suspending fish then use a jigging spoon or a blade bait like a Silver Buddy. Count the lure down or get a cheap line counter to attach to the rod/reel.
Posted 16 February 2008 - 12:21 AM
OK, talking casting and not trolling: As of 2000 per Mark Romanack's "Precision Casting", the deepest crankbait among off-the-shelf commercial cranks was the 3/4 oz Luhr Jensen Hot Lips Express at 22 ft on 10 lb line. It's ALMOST surprising how "deep divers" like the DD-22 actually run 16-18 ft. They must test those things on 2 lb test in a whirlpool. My buddy sez he has a Brian's Bee 24 that will do 23-24 ft. Maybe. They have a BIG body, a HUGE lip and weight 1 1/4 oz. How long would you want to cast THAT on 8 lb line? Getting a floating crankbait past 20ft is difficult and most times, like Mark P sez, you're better off opting for a jigging spoon, blade bait, jig, or carolina rig. Something that sinks. C-rigging a floating crankbait is also an option. But there are a few crazies around that love to fish extreme deep crankbaits. A few of the custom builders here on TU facilitate their mental illness But beyond 25 ft with a slow floating crankbait? I just don't believe it.
Posted 16 February 2008 - 01:06 AM
I do not know much about deep divers, because I do not make or buy them. But I have a few questions about.
1. Why do we need to always think about floating crankbaits that we want to push deeper into the water, since you can easier achieve that with a sinking one? Is there some kind of competition that I cannot think about?
2. (More theoretical this one, so more need for Vman's help). How deep into the water must a sinking crankbait dive, before it turns into a floating one ? (at that depth). At least that is what I think. A slow sinking crankbait would sink until it reaches deeper water with higher pressure, which would transform the sinking crankbait into a floating one. Are my assumptions incorrect?
Posted 16 February 2008 - 02:32 AM
That article was highly theoretical and was an attempt to provide logical explanations for a few of the anomalies that were being reported or claimed. Until someone actually does some controlled lab tests on cranks of various materials, we will never know. Such theories are pretty empty as far as usefulness goes, presented to merely satisfy the mind and answer questions posed.
As for your first question. It will make very little difference whether the crank is a floater or a sinker. Once it is moving, it will swim at a certain angle to the line. This angle depends on the forces on the lip balanced against the forces on the body. If you use a sinker and let it drop below its maximum depth and then start to retrieve, the lure will swim at this angle to the line. Due to the steepness of the line, the lure will be swimming in an upwards direction in order to keep its balanced condition.
Posted 16 February 2008 - 04:12 AM
Vman, I also think the way you do (about my second question). I am sure that you will never be able to run a slow sinking crankbait at the depth where this crankbait is supposed to become a floating one (or let's say a neutral buoyancy one) because long before this would become possible, the line would move the crankbait upwards, (or it would not allow it to go deeper) because the other end of the line is well above the crankbait.
As to the floating vs. sinking crankbaits, I think that the same crankbait would be able to go deeper by 30-40% in case you transform the crankbait from a floating one into a sinking one. This is only my guess, not something I have tested yet.
Posted 16 February 2008 - 05:56 AM
If disagreement would mean that we cannot be friends anymore, I would retract my words.
I think I forgot to mention something. When I speak about a sinking crankbait as opposed to a floating one, I mean fast sinking crankbait. Not really made out of lead, but a heavy one. If a heavy weighted crankbait would have a different action compared to the same crankbait made in a floating version, that's a totally different matter.
Posted 16 February 2008 - 06:19 AM
If it sinks, you can make it run deeper.......until you start reeling. Think about it, if you need a bait to run 30 ft deep, how long of a cast would you need to make to keep it that deep, even if it sinks like a brick? Remember that your line isn't going to be in a straight line from rodtip to bait, not matter wha you're fishing unless you're willing to wait a long time for that to happen. The resistance of the water won't let it happen.
Once you start reeling, a bait that sinks to that level is going to start coming up, because you're pulling it up.
But........like I said, if you make something heavy enough, and are willing to wait for your line to become tight after the bait sinks, AND you're also willing to reel slowly enough to keep the bait at that level, I guess it's feasible. But with a bait that heavy and having to reel it so slowly in order to keep it down, I wouldn't think it'd have any action at all.
Just throw a blade bait or spoon.
Posted 16 February 2008 - 07:37 AM
Clamboni, I totally agree ...... up to your last words. A heavily weighted crankbait would still be "X"ing at higher depth, even if not so fast, because it still has a lip which was designed to give the lure that action.
Posted 16 February 2008 - 07:57 AM
It happened again. I forgot to mention something.
If you have a sinking crankbait designed to run deep, you cast your bait, then wait until it reaches the bottom (or nearly, if your count down is correct), and then your lure would swim in deep water with an upward attitude. Such a lure would be closer to the bottom for a longer distance, compared to a floating one, which has first to go deeper and only afterwards it would swim upwards.
Posted 16 February 2008 - 08:09 AM
Everything above reads fine. A weight in front of the lure will indeed increase the depth, as has been mentioned in many threads. All that happens is that the lure will swim at a line angle relative to the weight. The larger the weight, the deeper the swim. I cannot think of a way of calculating the increased depth for say a 1/2oz lead, I guess it will have to be down to experience.
Posted 16 February 2008 - 11:21 AM
Thanks guys for all the very usefull information. It sounds like 25 ft is the deepest I will get a barely floating crank down. Now I have been thinking... Does a flat sided crank run deeper than a wide bodied crank because of its action? Oh and did I mention that this lake that I fish is very big. I don't know about you but trying to locate fish in a lake that is 7,346 acres is easy with a jig? Lol I'm not ripping on you guys is just when water clarity is 20+ feet a peice of metal swiming through the water does'nt look to reel to the fish. So.... I guess what I'll do is make alot of prototypes and test them when the ice thaws.
Posted 16 February 2008 - 11:24 AM
Oh and how deep do you guys think a 6in fast sinking trout swimbait will get on a steady retrieve? That is one thing that I am going to be experimenting with this year.
Posted 16 February 2008 - 12:12 PM
Rofish, all crankbaits eventually snag on cover if they are fished properly. You can usually get a floating crankbait back. It "wants" to back off snags and float to the surface. That's not true of sinking crankbaits. A second consideration is action. The heavier a crankbait is, the harder it is to get good action from it. When you talk about very heavy crankbaits, I think you're slipping from the crankbait universe into jigs. We're crankbait makers and afficionados. But if the bass are 30 ft deep, I say forget it and throw a carolina rig or a spoon. It's the difference between feasible and practical.
Posted 16 February 2008 - 02:13 PM
To be practical:
If you want your crankbaits to go very deep, it means you do not fish on a river, but on a lake. Best fishing on a lake is from a boat. If you get your crankbait hooked on a stone, tree or something else deep into the water, and you do not want to loose it, you will position your boat above the lure, and with a device specially designed for it, you will get back your lure.
I remember 2 drawings which were posted by Palmetto Balsa not long ago (don't know how to find them) showing a man holding a weight in each hand. In the first one he kept the weights in his extended arms, and in the second the arms with the weights were kept against his chest.
When I speak about heavily weighted crankbaits, I mean that the weight should be placed at the point where the 2 lines of the "X" meet. This would be the point where the weight would have little effect on the action. The weight should be, I think, like a cone, more to the belly and less to the back.
What is really necessary to be determined is how much depth you win with such a crankbait, compared to the loss of the action.
I repeat, I do not make sinking crankbaits. When I made a few by mistake (small ones, easy to go wrong with them) I found out that they go much deeper than I need for my river fishing, and eventually I lost them.
I think that if sinking crankbaits would not have a good action, nobody would buy them.
Posted 16 February 2008 - 03:35 PM
Maybe it boils down to preferences and specific fishing conditions. If I'm fishing a brush pile that's holding bass in 20 ft of water, I prefer a slow floating crankbait. I can get it back 90% of the time if it snags without using a lure retriever. I like that because I don't want to put my boat over the top of the cover and lower a heavy weight to the brush pile to bang it around and snag my lure, disturbing the bass, which will certainly be gone in short order. Tournament anglers routinely break off snagged crankbaits to avoid disturbing the fish in such circumstances. I'm a pleasure fisherman so don't go to that extreme but on the highly pressured lakes where I fish, I don't want to want to ruin a good fishing spot either if it can be avoided. So for me, a slow floating bait is more practical.