Cnc Mill, Copy Mill, Cnc Router ?s
17 replies to this topic
Posted 25 February 2008 - 11:27 AM
Ok couple of questions concerning the above mentioned machines, I am looking to make a big jump and increase my production output as I cannot keep up with orders. How much of an increase in production can be expected for shaping bodies and cutting lips, etc. I am currently doing about 100 to 125 lures a month and need to increase to say 300 lures per month, and finally recommendations on a machine
Posted 25 February 2008 - 01:22 PM
I won't recomend a machine but if you get the correct cnc you are talking thousands of plugs per month.If you just need to makes 300 or so a month a good duplicator and lathe will do at least for the types of lures i build.One other point cnc"s are not cheap.
Posted 25 February 2008 - 07:31 PM
Yeah get a duplicator or DIY one. Eastendlu is the expert on CNC here, I think sometimes he sleeps with them
Posted 26 February 2008 - 02:32 PM
LOL i wish i could translate Finnish
Posted 26 February 2008 - 11:35 PM
Dell makes all those soft plastics molds on a CNC, you might want to give him a holler. He makes awesome molds.
Posted 27 February 2008 - 12:40 AM
Rossrods has a thread going, were he produced his master using CNC.
Perhaps Rossrods or anyone else could give us an indication of time to machine two halves of a body.
I suspect that the time savings will not be spectacular. The advantages being repeatability rather than time. Also, other limitations have to be considered. The body will have to be machined in two halves. This works out nicely for installing through wire hangers and ballast. The wood has to be clamped or fixed in place for machining. This will leave the equivalent of sprue to be removed and cleaned up. Also, the surface finish will need improving, especially if using a very fibrous material like balsa (see photo's in Rossrods post).
The machine would do a great job of cutting out lips, maybe twenty or more at a time. Again, there will be at least two, more likely three bits on each lip that will require dressing, but it sure beats the labor required to manually cut twenty lips.
Care and thought has to be taken when it comes to any body detail that is required, like gill plates, lips and scales. I am not a machinist, so step in if I tell lies, but the final detail cuts will probably be made with a ball end cutter. The larger the cutter, the faster the operation. Obviously smaller cutters will be making a larger number of cuts and consequently wear out quicker. So the machinist wants to use the largest cutter possible. The artist in you, wants to do fine scale detail, with sharp cuts into the wood. This is not possible with a ball end cutter. I'm not sure what the minimum diameter cutters are, or what the experienced machinist would consider the practical minimum, I would like to know please!
With this information, it is possible to design on CAD, ensuring that the minimum radius used, matches the CNC cutter requirements and you can reach a compromise with your design, which can be viewed before going to the machine. The model is then saved, hopefully to a format that will suit your machine. But, as Del would quickly point out, things that can be dismissed in a simple sentence, don’t usually work out that slick. Trouble shooting problems is going to be a long learning process. I am on the edge of jumping in myself, so I am trying to be a realist, probably coming across negative, sorry about that, I really want you to succeed with this huge step.
If you don't want to go the CAD route, some machines provide a digitizing probe, this will load the shape into the computer.
I know this is way more than you asked, I guess the subject is on my mind. The machine will buy you some hands free time while the machine is running. You could utilize this free time by carving out another body!
Posted 27 February 2008 - 01:27 AM
Haha yeah Finnish, when are we gonna break that puzzle lol.
Posted 27 February 2008 - 10:25 AM
Vodkaman your way off if you use a mill turn cnc you can do the body and all holes even machine all around in one shot.As for digitizing you can use a laser digitizer or even just take a picture of the lure and use a vector graphics program to create the geometry for the outline.Many ways you can skin this cat.Problem here is that a good mill turn machine will cost you around 1/4 million and instead of making lures there is more money to be had useing this machine or for the most part any other cnc doing more profitable work.There are other mavhines which i have not mentioned that are way cheaper btw it would take a few pages to realy explain though.Just so you guys know i've been a machinist for over 30 years and i'm a manufacturing engineer so all i do now is tool design and program cnc's from 2 to 8 axis from sewing machine parts to the shuttle and you name it i can make it.
Posted 27 February 2008 - 12:19 PM
Or if its broke, he can fix it. Lu's truck repair at the homeless hotel
Posted 27 February 2008 - 12:32 PM
That's what I'd do, talk to somebody "who knows" then hire them to program my CNC and teach me how to run it.
If you're doing 125 baits a month @$22 a Plaster of Paris it could almost pay for itself rather quickly. Then too, you would also have more time for new or other projects.
Posted 27 February 2008 - 12:51 PM
Your right on the money!
I am looking at a mazak mill turn , I dont like mazaks that much but they seem to be pretty good.
you forgot to mention that the rpms on most mill turn lathes are not near enough to cut crankbaits most have a limit on 3k-5k spindle speeds if I remember correctly. a crank bait would take approx 1-2 hours to make.
in that you forgot the programming software and time to program a mill turn for a crank bait which by programming means is a very complex program on a mill turn.
250k for a machine
10-20k for decent software
then a building to put it in and all the tooling and such.
Lures and or molds wouldnt come close to paying for a machine like this. unless you can do $100+ and hour on this machine in finished products
Even using a mill with a 4th and 5th axis attachment you would be wasting money on crankbaits.( I've done it for myself)
There is always the right machine for a job and sometimes we tend to over kill the situation with bigger and better.
If you guys ever get a chance to watch a show called "how its made" be sure to watch it, its on discovery channel, very interesting and it will give you ideas big time.
there was a few shows that used copy mills, in all honesty that is the best way to go. then you get a drum sander and sand them down. the copy mill will rough them down pretty quick.
Posted 27 February 2008 - 05:16 PM
Well I guess this puts that to rest as i do not have an extra 275K laying around, I thought that plunking down 15k might get me a machine that I could cut lips and rough out bodies with, maybe cut some aluminum molds as well, oh well back to the drawing board!!This is the machine I was looking at:
SmithyCNC 1240 Bed Mill
Posted 27 February 2008 - 05:25 PM
15k will get you a machine but if your not experienced in this field you probably won't be getting the right machine for your application.Do a search for spindle turning machines or ballusters their is a german one i forget the name that would kick some serious butt making plugs.
Posted 27 February 2008 - 05:32 PM
You could have your lips made out of lexan with a sheet metal shop, as long as they are flat. It will require some clean up though, or you could buy a tool to punch them out in one hit for 400-1100 dollars depending on size.
Posted 27 February 2008 - 05:32 PM
Lu you are a sick sick bastard. Machinists are proud of their tools
Posted 27 February 2008 - 08:29 PM
I was trying to give advice that fitted the budget, I assumed a budget of a couple of thousand as that is the price that CNC starts. Of course, with a 5 axis machine, you can make just about anything. But 5 axis and laser digitizers are just not feasible for this project.
1 - 2K will get you a desk top operation, 3 axis machine. They will cut an area of roughly an A4 sheet of paper (12x8). For cutting lips and bodies 4 at a time, a machine of this proportions should be adequate.
The cheaper machines are based around a dremel type motor, but if you pay just a little extra, a more powerful, dedicated motor can be provided.
A 15K budget will get you a very descent machine, probably upto A3 or even A2 size. It may be a good idea to contact suppliers of such machines in your area and see if they can put you intouch with other small machine operators in your area. You can then get a first hand appreciation of what is involved.
The Smithy1240 looks good. You should have no trouble finding a user of this machine in your area. You can cut a lot of bodies on a 22” x 13” bed.
Good luck, should you decide to persue this option.
Posted 28 February 2008 - 12:09 AM
Black jack you should look into those cnc routers, they have a higher RPM and are pretty strong. for lips and crank bait bodies alike. when you get into metals your talking a completely differnt ball game.
for example a cnc router is great for wood and thin sheet metal, and the machine you linked its good for metal but would suck for wood
wood tools vs metals tools are a completly different ball game. wood is less forgiving than metals and easier to work with. Metal cause's major vibration and you need a solid very solid machine IE WEIGHT and tourqe
the machine that you linked I have heard lots about them, in a job shop enviroment they would be usless, however in a light duty enviroment and cutting what you want to do they would more than likely be fine.
dont forget you will need cad cam software for 3d works. bobcad is ok if you have never used cadcam software before. word of warning there tech support sucks and they wont likely help you after you spend 2-4 k with them. they are more of a sell and run type company, basically you buy it your on your own no matter what the sales guy says.
that being said bobcad has some awsum features that you wont find in other very high end software or it takes longer to use them in the high end softwares.
if you do look into bobcad goto one of there paid seminairs its the best and only way to learn that program.
a new user of cad-cam software will pick up BOBCad 100x faster than a use that has used mastercam/smartcam/surfcam for 15+ years.