A-Mac

swimbait w/out the swim

64 posts in this topic

Yes possible, that the dorsal fin is hindering the action additionally. Do you have larger pictures of the bait? I think that would help. As somebody already said the body needs to bend enough due to flexible joints.

One can achieve the action without applying a bill. My latest swimbait does not need a bill as you can see in the video, I posted in another thread

th_Yummy-Bream.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

here's the location of the bigger pic: http://www.tackleunderground.com/photos/index.php?n=2258

in contradistinction to all that has been said... has anyone looked at the Jackall Giron? its practically the same dimensions of the problem bait here. the only variations between the Giron and the non-swimmer are the size/material of the fins and the # of joints (and possibly the width of the lure as well as the exact weighting, but those are difficult to observe from a single side shot lol). the Giron is lacking the ventral depth/elongation, yet it swims... it has an extremely thin head and body width, yet it swims... it has rigid fins (not too big) and yet it swims...:whistle:

my guess, like others have already made, is that the fins are causing too much drag - just cut 'em down a little, or a lot lol

jackall giron clear.jpg

jackall giron clear.jpg

jackall giron clear.jpg

jackall giron clear.jpg

jackall giron clear.jpg

jackall giron clear.jpg

jackall giron clear.jpg

jackall giron clear.jpg

2735_thumb.attach

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you look at the giron it is not really lacking the ventral area...its just in form of the anal fin instead of body. Looking at the larger picture the keel like weighted middle section and the dorsal fin look really stabilizing...let us know about your tests

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Luretrekker, I think your vortex theory is spot on.

The thing about an aerodynamic or smooth flowing nose section, is that, like a wing, it promotes laminar flow and we need the vortices for the action. SO, before trying all the invasive solutions mentioned above, all of which are sound advice, try the silly puddy! Create a blunt nose, then increase the ventral depth and then try both. Try molding a blunt or flat above the eye location. All these trials are for free, no damage to the lure. But only change and test one parameter at a time, or you won't know which one worked.

Once these tests have been exhausted with no result, then you can start cutting.

If you really want to keep the fins, then as suggested above, you may have to introduce a lip.

Lots of good advice above. Don't forget to report back with your findings. More can be learned about lure design from the failures than from the successes. Don't bin the failures, send them to me!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thank you all for the comments... except that d@m^ IU fan ;)

I plan to build another one and do some tests at my work (aquaculture lab) this weekend. I will try the silly puddy on the current one and also try a new one without the fins. I think I will have more space between joints. I think that by doing this more water will be displaced. Shouldn't the first joint still wobble even if the lacking of ventral area is the potential problem? Anywho, from what I've found every bait design has its own quirks. I guess the challenge is what makes it fun. Optimism

I will keep you all posted on progress... and failures :teef:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A-Mac,

In looking at your lure, I see a problem that I had with a lure I made. Luretrekker's drawings show the problem.

Sunfish have almost a "taller than long" shape, with the dorsal and anal fins projecting almost to the tail. I didn't duplicate that profile with my lure.

I made my bluegill lure's tail section too thin, top to bottom, and there wasn't enough flat area in line with the water flow vortex for it to swim well. After looking at Luretrekker's diagram, I'm going to add fixed fins top and bottom to the tail section. I'm going to use clear margarine tub tops for the fins. If it doesn't work, it's not like I will have ruined a working lure.

Maybe I'll get lucky.

And if it doesn't work, I'll hang it right in front of my work bench. along with other "failures" that I've learned from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I thank you all for the comments... except that d@m^ IU fan ;)

Shouldn't the first joint still wobble even if the lacking of ventral area is the potential problem?

:teef:

The problem with the first section is that it is possible that it's area ist to short to experience the vortex in a sufficient manner...the longer the area the more pressure it will get. Action will increase with lenght in some way. There are two distinct main actions I think. One wider s-action can be achieved by a two joint bait and a more smooth but little more "agressive" action with 3 ore multi joint baits.

Lure failures are part of the business ;-) I have some hanging around here too ;-) but take it from the bright side, now you don't want to go fishing with it and it will do a really good job in your room ;-) A bait with awesome action will never hang around somewhere other than on the rod :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sunfish have almost a "taller than long" shape, with the dorsal and anal fins projecting almost to the tail.

Sunfish have a laterally compressed body form.

I would look into possibly going towards a jointed crankbait approach to "save" this lure after trying to trouble shoot some issues. If it doesn't work still would be a nice display piece. You had mentioned what other woods. I use basswood mainly, some paulownia, and balsa at times.

Not really any good balsa to be found locally but you can head to Hobby Lobby to see their selection (more than Michael's). Basswood can be found at both but they want a premium for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the best swimming single jointed swimbaits I ever made was this Crappie pattern. I had a microfiber tail on it but none of the others. I'm certain though that it would still swim if I'd added the rest of the fins.

I have come to notice that if I have my dorsal fins sticking straight up vertically, the actions are greatly reduced but when I angle them back like they are half folded down then they swim perfectly.

P1040210 (Medium).JPG

P1040210 (Medium).JPG

P1040210 (Medium).JPG

P1040210 (Medium).JPG

P1040210 (Medium).JPG

P1040210 (Medium).JPG

P1040210 (Medium).JPG

P1040210 (Medium).JPG

2740_thumb.attach

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Snax, that was a very interesting observation about the fin angles. Now I've got to work out why!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what exactly is microfiber? I've seen it on other baits and it looks amazing. I just got done wandering through Hobby Lobby hoping something would pop out as a material to use as fins. I'd like a thin rubber but didn't see anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you should be able to find the micro-fiber in the fly-tying supplies at the sportsman's warehouse off 26 on the south side A-Mac. In fact, that might be the same shopping center of the Hobby Lobby that you were talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep same shopping center plenty of stuff in the fly tying isle. There was a fly shop also in downtown Lafayette but I can't remember what street it was on or if it is still opened. I don't remember seeing it lately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its Alive!!! Here is the rundown on swimbait tests.

1st tested as is... very little movement.

2nd added silly puddy to the lower tail and started getting some movement.

3rd added more silly puddy, just to the ventral side of the tail... more movement but still pretty lame.

4th added silly puddy to beef up forehead and had no significant changes (still had puddy on tail).

5th removed dorsal and anal fins and left tail beefed up w/ puddy. Lots of movement and achieved swimming action!

6th removed puddy from tail (no dorsal or ventral fins) Eureka! I think my new tackle box companion and I have some tournament business to attend to in the upcoming season:yes:

The ventral area did seem to lack vortex. However, it actually deadened the action w/out the fins in comparison to trail 6. So it seems that everyone was right depending on the trial.

Luckily, I didn't destroy the bait while removing the fins. The bait needed 1 more clear coating anyways (reason y the wires are sticking out everywhere). So here's my game plan. I'm gonna roll down to Sportsman's Warehouse, get some microfiber, and see what I can do.

Any news as to whether microfiber will lessen my action? When I acquire my supplies and refurbish the bait I'll add some pics and hopefully a swimming video. Thank you all for your professional wisdom!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fly shop that was in downtown lafayette closed unfortunately. Sportsman's has a decent selection of fishing stuff, best in town anyways. You can get some stuff at Dick's at the mall that they don't have at Sportsman's. Fishing section at wal-mart is only so-so (I don't shop at Wal-Mart anyways), K-Mart's is even worse. If you know of any other places, I would love to hear about it. BTW, congrats on getting that bait working A-Mac.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad to here you got the bait worked out. Always great to figure out a lures problems.

As far as other tackle stores in Lafayette/West Lafayette it is slim. All you major retailers are poor at best. Used to be a guy on Kossuth that had a tackle store but I would imagine it went under judging by the few times I went in. ArrowsIII and Tackle Too has some tackle but I wasn't too impressed and at one time Walker's carried a very, very limited supply but that was when they were on Earl and I don't recall seeing anything at the "new" place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AWESOME JOB MAN! its always a great feeling when u've saved one from the fire pit :yeah:

thank u for sharing your findings with the puddy and whatnot. i'm still doubtful regarding the necessity of ventral vortexes though (your test confirmed this)... maybe someone should further investigate this whole phenomena. i was always under the assumption that much of swimbait movement was created through lateral displacement, not vertical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chartreuse,

I love it when you talk dirty. :o)

Seriously, I thought the water passing down the sides of the lure are what affected the swimming action.

Funny, but in my limited experience, a flat sided crank with a lip has a tighter wiggle, but a flat sided swim bait has more wiggle. In fact, my rounder profile baits don't swim. The work only as twitch baits.

And baits that are taller tend to roll when you burn them.

And I don't know why any of these lures do what they do, but they do it.

Geez, I wish I were smarter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for adding microfiber fins. What I use mostly now is synthetic tapered paintbrush bristles instead of actual fly tying microfibetts. This is mostly due to the cost of the fibetts and the fact that my lures are fairly large.

What I do is use a dremel cutting wheel to make the slots where the fins will go. Then I use green masking tape and mask up around the slots so I won't get epoxy every where when adding the fins.

The tricky part is when you are trying to get the trimmed up fibers into the slot without getting them everywhere other than in the slot! I use surgical locking hemostats now and they have been a big help for holding the clump of fibers.

I believe that John Hopkins uses tape to keep the fibers together but how exactly he does it I'm not sure. Perhaps he'll comment on that himself.

Good luck with the bait and well done so far!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As far as other tackle stores in Lafayette/West Lafayette it is slim. All you major retailers are poor at best. Used to be a guy on Kossuth that had a tackle store but I would imagine it went under judging by the few times I went in. ArrowsIII and Tackle Too has some tackle but I wasn't too impressed and at one time Walker's carried a very, very limited supply but that was when they were on Earl and I don't recall seeing anything at the "new" place.

Actually, place on Kossuth was still open last time I checked but they don't have much. ArrowsIII tackle selection isn't worth the drive to get there, and Walker's (Tippecanoe County Sport Shop now) doesn't have any tackle last time I checked.

A-Mac, you might check the place on Kossuth (near 18th I think, and I think its called Abbott's Outdoors) though because I think they cater more towards fly fishing anyways, so they might have what you need.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now