swimbait w/out the swim
63 replies to this topic
Posted 28 February 2008 - 04:54 PM
I think this can have manyfold reasons, but on reason why one of my swimbaits first didn't worked was that the rear end tail section ventrally had not enough area or body depth.
I made a quick drawing where I can show you what I mean...
The upper bait looks like the bait we are talking about.
both lures below depict a potentially working one and a potentially not working one...the vortexes creataed from the head section are rolling alternating on the left and the right along the lures body, thus if the lure is jointed well, the differences in occuring pressure produce the action.
But when the bottom part of the tail section lacks of area that can experience the vortex in combination with a short lure it won't work.
This is what I experienced by building swimbaits.
Of course other factors that have been mentioned play a role too, but I don't think it must imerativley be caused by the weighting in every segment. But best way to find out the reason ist try end error with variating different things...
Posted 28 February 2008 - 05:00 PM
interesting... so are you suggesting i should slap some silly puddy on the tail area and see if it works? i need a hydro- engineer!!! Do you think the narrow head section has anything to do with the water displacement necessary to swim?
Posted 28 February 2008 - 05:08 PM
the fins are definately hindering the swim of the bait....however i don't think it would swim without the fins on it.....you need a bill under the head (as you would see on other swimbaits or shallow divers) that deflects water and gives it action....for a bait that size i would try a bill approx 3/4 inch long and 3/4 inch wide. it is tapered from the front to back....try and see if it helps.....nugene
Posted 28 February 2008 - 05:13 PM
Does your swimbait have a slender, narrow head? Yes I think the head section shouldn't be too slender, but it's really hard to dtermine the real cause from far away and sometimes even from near ;-) man...there are really many things I think they have different influence on high-back and low-back shaped baits. But I think it is essential that there is a source of vortex generation (usually the head) and enough area over length that can experience their forces.
Posted 28 February 2008 - 05:23 PM
I think several issues may be hampering you here. As mentioned hte dorsal and caudal fins may be acting as rudders and helping to stablilze the lure.
After looking more closely at you're lure design it has many elements similar to a hydrodynamic keels in sail boats specifically a bulb keel and would possibly be adding additional stabilty to the lure. Instead of combating the lateral force associated with the sail it wold be combating any possible "swimming" efforts.
I would put this one up on the shelf and repeat and go as simple as possible on the next one, no paint, just a few coats of poly or something so it can be reworked as needed. Get the action down and then finish it out.
Posted 28 February 2008 - 05:26 PM
Yes possible, that the dorsal fin is hindering the action additionally. Do you have larger pictures of the bait? I think that would help. As somebody already said the body needs to bend enough due to flexible joints.
One can achieve the action without applying a bill. My latest swimbait does not need a bill as you can see in the video, I posted in another thread
Posted 28 February 2008 - 07:18 PM
here's the location of the bigger pic: http://www.tackleund...ndex.php?n=2258
in contradistinction to all that has been said... has anyone looked at the Jackall Giron? its practically the same dimensions of the problem bait here. the only variations between the Giron and the non-swimmer are the size/material of the fins and the # of joints (and possibly the width of the lure as well as the exact weighting, but those are difficult to observe from a single side shot lol). the Giron is lacking the ventral depth/elongation, yet it swims... it has an extremely thin head and body width, yet it swims... it has rigid fins (not too big) and yet it swims...
my guess, like others have already made, is that the fins are causing too much drag - just cut 'em down a little, or a lot lol
Posted 29 February 2008 - 12:38 AM
I GOT ONE FOR YOU!!!! TRY GOING TO IU!!!! then it will swim right!!! Sorry I just had to say that!!!
Posted 29 February 2008 - 03:10 AM
If you look at the giron it is not really lacking the ventral area...its just in form of the anal fin instead of body. Looking at the larger picture the keel like weighted middle section and the dorsal fin look really stabilizing...let us know about your tests
Posted 29 February 2008 - 06:12 AM
Luretrekker, I think your vortex theory is spot on.
The thing about an aerodynamic or smooth flowing nose section, is that, like a wing, it promotes laminar flow and we need the vortices for the action. SO, before trying all the invasive solutions mentioned above, all of which are sound advice, try the silly puddy! Create a blunt nose, then increase the ventral depth and then try both. Try molding a blunt or flat above the eye location. All these trials are for free, no damage to the lure. But only change and test one parameter at a time, or you won't know which one worked.
Once these tests have been exhausted with no result, then you can start cutting.
If you really want to keep the fins, then as suggested above, you may have to introduce a lip.
Lots of good advice above. Don't forget to report back with your findings. More can be learned about lure design from the failures than from the successes. Don't bin the failures, send them to me!
Posted 29 February 2008 - 10:18 AM
I thank you all for the comments... except that d@m^ IU fan
I plan to build another one and do some tests at my work (aquaculture lab) this weekend. I will try the silly puddy on the current one and also try a new one without the fins. I think I will have more space between joints. I think that by doing this more water will be displaced. Shouldn't the first joint still wobble even if the lacking of ventral area is the potential problem? Anywho, from what I've found every bait design has its own quirks. I guess the challenge is what makes it fun. Optimism
I will keep you all posted on progress... and failures
Posted 29 February 2008 - 11:49 AM
In looking at your lure, I see a problem that I had with a lure I made. Luretrekker's drawings show the problem.
Sunfish have almost a "taller than long" shape, with the dorsal and anal fins projecting almost to the tail. I didn't duplicate that profile with my lure.
I made my bluegill lure's tail section too thin, top to bottom, and there wasn't enough flat area in line with the water flow vortex for it to swim well. After looking at Luretrekker's diagram, I'm going to add fixed fins top and bottom to the tail section. I'm going to use clear margarine tub tops for the fins. If it doesn't work, it's not like I will have ruined a working lure.
Maybe I'll get lucky.
And if it doesn't work, I'll hang it right in front of my work bench. along with other "failures" that I've learned from.
Posted 29 February 2008 - 01:18 PM
The problem with the first section is that it is possible that it's area ist to short to experience the vortex in a sufficient manner...the longer the area the more pressure it will get. Action will increase with lenght in some way. There are two distinct main actions I think. One wider s-action can be achieved by a two joint bait and a more smooth but little more "agressive" action with 3 ore multi joint baits.
Lure failures are part of the business ;-) I have some hanging around here too ;-) but take it from the bright side, now you don't want to go fishing with it and it will do a really good job in your room ;-) A bait with awesome action will never hang around somewhere other than on the rod
Posted 29 February 2008 - 01:43 PM
Sunfish have a laterally compressed body form.
I would look into possibly going towards a jointed crankbait approach to "save" this lure after trying to trouble shoot some issues. If it doesn't work still would be a nice display piece. You had mentioned what other woods. I use basswood mainly, some paulownia, and balsa at times.
Not really any good balsa to be found locally but you can head to Hobby Lobby to see their selection (more than Michael's). Basswood can be found at both but they want a premium for it.
Posted 29 February 2008 - 04:44 PM
One of the best swimming single jointed swimbaits I ever made was this Crappie pattern. I had a microfiber tail on it but none of the others. I'm certain though that it would still swim if I'd added the rest of the fins.
I have come to notice that if I have my dorsal fins sticking straight up vertically, the actions are greatly reduced but when I angle them back like they are half folded down then they swim perfectly.
Posted 01 March 2008 - 05:02 AM
That does it!!!!
I really hate you now!!!!
Great looking lure.
Posted 01 March 2008 - 05:12 AM
Snax, that was a very interesting observation about the fin angles. Now I've got to work out why!
Posted 01 March 2008 - 11:54 AM
what exactly is microfiber? I've seen it on other baits and it looks amazing. I just got done wandering through Hobby Lobby hoping something would Plaster of Paris out as a material to use as fins. I'd like a thin rubber but didn't see anything.
Posted 01 March 2008 - 12:23 PM
Microfiber is used in the fly tying industry. Used for tails on bugs.
Posted 01 March 2008 - 01:37 PM
I think you should be able to find the micro-fiber in the fly-tying supplies at the sportsman's warehouse off 26 on the south side A-Mac. In fact, that might be the same shopping center of the Hobby Lobby that you were talking about.