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A Safer Topcoat-Please help
37 replies to this topic
Posted 25 March 2008 - 04:00 PM
We are working in our basements
What are we doing?
Is there anyone out there using a safe,non toxic topcoat?
Dick nights is Laquer based
Epoxy is very volatile
I would like to work with safer products
Posted 25 March 2008 - 07:22 PM
Thats what we need no voc
That looks great
I am going to call the company and see if I can get a sample
Posted 25 March 2008 - 08:04 PM
Salty, I'm unaware that Devcon 2 Ton epoxy is volatile or outgases any solvent (it doesn't contain any that I'm aware of). It is a skin irritant. Some epoxies like Etex do contain solvent to slow the cure rate and release bubbles. Also, Dick Nite moisture cured polyurethane seems to outgas most of its solvent quickly, within an hour or so. You can dip in an outdoor area, rotate them for an hour and then take them inside to harden over several days. I haven't read any good reports about water based coatings from those here on TU who have tried them.
Posted 25 March 2008 - 10:15 PM
I have been messing with Minwax polyacrylic and it seems really tough. It is water based and doesnt make any real odor. I think it is still harmfull if you stick your nose over the can and inhale concentrated amounts.....but no more than your average deoderant.
Posted 26 March 2008 - 12:55 AM
A lot of us have used Polycrylic for a sealer, for which it does a good job on the harder woods, but we all know that while it may be okay for furniture, it simply isn't tough enough to do the job for topcoating lures. Save yourself the trouble, it just isn't worth it.
Posted 26 March 2008 - 03:57 AM
I'm in the finishing business & if you want a finish thats HAPS free & LEEDS compliant, be prepared to pay for it.
In your defense, it is the future, government regulations are cracking down on businesses that still use volatile chemicals.
There was a recent movement in California to remove all traces of formaldehyde from sheet goods. Government is also giving incentives for those who go "GREEN" & I applaud the recognition for such activism.
The Issue I'm experiencing is that coating manufacturers are way behind on comparable coatings, given, many strides have been made recently but If you go green you have to make compromises in performance & hope that the coating suppliers will catch up as soon as possible.
I personally have never experienced any noxious gas issues with epoxy.
Posted 26 March 2008 - 08:20 AM
Here in California, one of the substitutes that was developed to replaced solvent based urethane floor finishes is a product called "Traffic". It is a "moisture cured" urethane, but I don't it is water based. Rather, they came up with a formula to emulsify the urethane (I think thats the term, anyway) in the water, and the water is the carrier that helps spread the urethane, after which it dries, and the urethane molecules link up and remain.
It is very hard when dry, but it smells like crazy for the first hour until it sets, so I don't think it's harmless. Like a lot of paints and finishes that have been developed to save the ozone layer, it's great for the environment, but not for people.
Posted 26 March 2008 - 04:14 PM
Component Systems told me that they have a good water based top coat alternative.
Posted 26 March 2008 - 07:34 PM
Where did you hear this? According to Devcon's msds on their 30min 2-ton epoxy, the product is not very volatile. If you're looking for a safe topcoat, you've found it-- because it's about the safest stuff available.
Posted 27 March 2008 - 12:29 AM
I have tried the component systems and it is a good coating but you would need probably 4-6 coats and it's not nearly as hard as etex or devcon. Expensive too!
I agree tho that the epoxies are nasty and dangerous! I know of people that say the expoxies don't bother them but if I don't use a mask they bother me.
The product Clemmy posted looks interesting.
Posted 27 March 2008 - 07:02 AM
Trust me after using etex in the basement for 30 bucktails.
Even using a mask/your nostrils get irritated.
We need a safe TOPCOAT.Years of doing this will have a negative effect on your health.I am hearing Devcon has no volatile fumes.You guys using it sound like its a better alternative to Etex.These new water based-Is the jury still out.Anyone no more about the component systems product
Posted 27 March 2008 - 07:06 AM
Sounds like there is a real need for someone to market a product thats hard and safe?
Posted 27 March 2008 - 07:46 PM
Interesting topic! I am also health concsious in regards to epoxy fumes, etc. As far as you guys who are claiming that Devcon is relatively harmless as far as off gasing & chemical release, you will have to try harder to convince me. I'm not sure how it's packaged in the U.S. but where I buy it in Canada it comes in a small cardboard package which has a WHIMIS placard printed on the side. This placard states:
"EPOXY RESIN/HARDENER FOR INDUSTRIAL USE ONLY! DANGER!
Contains N-Aminoethylpiperazine(140-31-8 ) Corrosive.SEVERE eye, skin, resperatory tract irritant. Potential skin sensitizer. Avoid breathing vapors. Use with adequate ventilation."
The message goes on to instruct on first aid proceedures. Just in case your wondering what N-Aminoethylpiperazine is I Wikipediaed it & found:
" It is a corrosive liquid & causes burns of 2nd & 3rd degree. Also can cause pulmonary edema as a result of inhalation."
By the way pulmanary edema is a "swelling and/or fluid accumulation in the lungs, It leads to impaired gas exchange & may cause respiratory failure"
If that doesn't sound like a product that off gases or releases potentially harmful chemicals then I don't know what does!
Posted 27 March 2008 - 08:40 PM
I recently used Devcon and noticed some fumes, but I have always used Easy Cast clear casting epoxy made by Castin Craft. It is normally used for paper weights, cupboard knobs...ect. and has low odor. It seemed that it was just as hard as Devcon. Has anyone ever used the iridescent lure epoxy kit made by Flex Coat? I would love to know how well it works.
Posted 27 March 2008 - 09:15 PM
Just get some Minwax Polyacrylic. It is almost oderless and is water based. It is in no way as harmfull as epoxy. I know some folks say it isnt as durable, but if you dip it, it will be thick enough to hold up. I finished two baits lastnight and tried both methods. The first got 2 brushed on coats I can see that it probably wouldnt hold up to being dragged up the sandy beach. The second was dipped twice. It is thick and very clear. I think it will put up with some abuse. Besides, when brushed it dried in about 20 minutes. The dipped however took about an hour. I also learned you can speed up that process with a blowdryer........
This stuff is much cheaper than epoxy and does not need to be thinned with more caustic chemicals. It is acrylic (hence the name) so say goodbye to paint/coating compatabilty issues...........
Posted 27 March 2008 - 09:52 PM
Hey Sonny, that minwax polyacrylic sounds tempting. I wonder how it handles sunlight (in terms of yellowing) & how it works in cold water( brittleness). I experimented with NHP epoxy which is used in model airplane building. It went on great, seemed to dry nice & hard as well as clear but the first fall I took those lures out trolling, they all got really wierd cracks all over the bodies due to the cold water!
Posted 27 March 2008 - 10:28 PM
The lures I described above are the first I have made. Before I got started I researched alternatives to all the toxic materials. I have to do my finishing in the house so I didnt want to be dealing with large quantities of epoxy and lead. I found some posts on this site from a guy who was using the polyacrylic successfully. As for he lead, I bought an alternative material in egg sinker form and am using those.
As far as the cold water affecting the coating: The coating feels almost like rubber. The epoxy and other brittle materials are more subject to thermal shock than the polyacrylic. Also, this is not polyurethane. Polyurethane is the stuff that yellows....(and varnish) Infact, All epoxies and varnishes break down from uv. There are uv inhibitors added to the varnishes when finisheing a boat for that very reason.
Another thing that is good about it is that you dont have to worry about mixing ratios. Also, if you start finishing and get called away, you can just put the lid on the can. Epoxy ould cure and you woul dhave to mix another batch.
Hope this helps