saltyross

A Safer Topcoat-Please help

38 posts in this topic

We are working in our basements

Using repirators

breathing fumes

What are we doing?

Is there anyone out there using a safe,non toxic topcoat?

Dick nights is Laquer based

Epoxy is very volatile

I would like to work with safer products

SaltyRoss

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Thanks Clemmy

Thats what we need no voc

That looks great

I am going to call the company and see if I can get a sample

Salty Ross

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Salty, I'm unaware that Devcon 2 Ton epoxy is volatile or outgases any solvent (it doesn't contain any that I'm aware of). It is a skin irritant. Some epoxies like Etex do contain solvent to slow the cure rate and release bubbles. Also, Dick Nite moisture cured polyurethane seems to outgas most of its solvent quickly, within an hour or so. You can dip in an outdoor area, rotate them for an hour and then take them inside to harden over several days. I haven't read any good reports about water based coatings from those here on TU who have tried them.

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Gents

I have been messing with Minwax polyacrylic and it seems really tough. It is water based and doesnt make any real odor. I think it is still harmfull if you stick your nose over the can and inhale concentrated amounts.....but no more than your average deoderant.

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Sonny,

A lot of us have used Polycrylic for a sealer, for which it does a good job on the harder woods, but we all know that while it may be okay for furniture, it simply isn't tough enough to do the job for topcoating lures. Save yourself the trouble, it just isn't worth it.

Dean

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I'm in the finishing business & if you want a finish thats HAPS free & LEEDS compliant, be prepared to pay for it.

In your defense, it is the future, government regulations are cracking down on businesses that still use volatile chemicals.

There was a recent movement in California to remove all traces of formaldehyde from sheet goods. Government is also giving incentives for those who go "GREEN" & I applaud the recognition for such activism.

The Issue I'm experiencing is that coating manufacturers are way behind on comparable coatings, given, many strides have been made recently but If you go green you have to make compromises in performance & hope that the coating suppliers will catch up as soon as possible.

I personally have never experienced any noxious gas issues with epoxy.

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Here in California, one of the substitutes that was developed to replaced solvent based urethane floor finishes is a product called "Traffic". It is a "moisture cured" urethane, but I don't it is water based. Rather, they came up with a formula to emulsify the urethane (I think thats the term, anyway) in the water, and the water is the carrier that helps spread the urethane, after which it dries, and the urethane molecules link up and remain.

It is very hard when dry, but it smells like crazy for the first hour until it sets, so I don't think it's harmless. Like a lot of paints and finishes that have been developed to save the ozone layer, it's great for the environment, but not for people.

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...

Epoxy is very volatile

I would like to work with safer products

SaltyRoss

Where did you hear this? According to Devcon's msds on their 30min 2-ton epoxy, the product is not very volatile. If you're looking for a safe topcoat, you've found it-- because it's about the safest stuff available.

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I have tried the component systems and it is a good coating but you would need probably 4-6 coats and it's not nearly as hard as etex or devcon. Expensive too!

I agree tho that the epoxies are nasty and dangerous! I know of people that say the expoxies don't bother them but if I don't use a mask they bother me.

The product Clemmy posted looks interesting.

RM

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Trust me after using etex in the basement for 30 bucktails.

Even using a mask/your nostrils get irritated.

We need a safe TOPCOAT.Years of doing this will have a negative effect on your health.I am hearing Devcon has no volatile fumes.You guys using it sound like its a better alternative to Etex.These new water based-Is the jury still out.Anyone no more about the component systems product

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Interesting topic! I am also health concsious in regards to epoxy fumes, etc. As far as you guys who are claiming that Devcon is relatively harmless as far as off gasing & chemical release, you will have to try harder to convince me. I'm not sure how it's packaged in the U.S. but where I buy it in Canada it comes in a small cardboard package which has a WHIMIS placard printed on the side. This placard states:

"EPOXY RESIN/HARDENER FOR INDUSTRIAL USE ONLY! DANGER!

Contains N-Aminoethylpiperazine(140-31-8 ) Corrosive.SEVERE eye, skin, resperatory tract irritant. Potential skin sensitizer. Avoid breathing vapors. Use with adequate ventilation."

The message goes on to instruct on first aid proceedures. Just in case your wondering what N-Aminoethylpiperazine is I Wikipediaed it & found:

" It is a corrosive liquid & causes burns of 2nd & 3rd degree. Also can cause pulmonary edema as a result of inhalation."

By the way pulmanary edema is a "swelling and/or fluid accumulation in the lungs, It leads to impaired gas exchange & may cause respiratory failure"

If that doesn't sound like a product that off gases or releases potentially harmful chemicals then I don't know what does!

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I recently used Devcon and noticed some fumes, but I have always used Easy Cast clear casting epoxy made by Castin Craft. It is normally used for paper weights, cupboard knobs...ect. and has low odor. It seemed that it was just as hard as Devcon. Has anyone ever used the iridescent lure epoxy kit made by Flex Coat? I would love to know how well it works.

thanks,

Kokosing

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Just get some Minwax Polyacrylic. It is almost oderless and is water based. It is in no way as harmfull as epoxy. I know some folks say it isnt as durable, but if you dip it, it will be thick enough to hold up. I finished two baits lastnight and tried both methods. The first got 2 brushed on coats I can see that it probably wouldnt hold up to being dragged up the sandy beach. The second was dipped twice. It is thick and very clear. I think it will put up with some abuse. Besides, when brushed it dried in about 20 minutes. The dipped however took about an hour. I also learned you can speed up that process with a blowdryer........

This stuff is much cheaper than epoxy and does not need to be thinned with more caustic chemicals. It is acrylic (hence the name) so say goodbye to paint/coating compatabilty issues...........

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Hey Sonny, that minwax polyacrylic sounds tempting. I wonder how it handles sunlight (in terms of yellowing) & how it works in cold water( brittleness). I experimented with NHP epoxy which is used in model airplane building. It went on great, seemed to dry nice & hard as well as clear but the first fall I took those lures out trolling, they all got really wierd cracks all over the bodies due to the cold water!

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Pikester

The lures I described above are the first I have made. Before I got started I researched alternatives to all the toxic materials. I have to do my finishing in the house so I didnt want to be dealing with large quantities of epoxy and lead. I found some posts on this site from a guy who was using the polyacrylic successfully. As for he lead, I bought an alternative material in egg sinker form and am using those.

As far as the cold water affecting the coating: The coating feels almost like rubber. The epoxy and other brittle materials are more subject to thermal shock than the polyacrylic. Also, this is not polyurethane. Polyurethane is the stuff that yellows....(and varnish) Infact, All epoxies and varnishes break down from uv. There are uv inhibitors added to the varnishes when finisheing a boat for that very reason.

Another thing that is good about it is that you dont have to worry about mixing ratios. Also, if you start finishing and get called away, you can just put the lid on the can. Epoxy ould cure and you woul dhave to mix another batch.

Hope this helps

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Lincoya - Yep, and the fumes are lethal, would take quite a few dips to get a good coat and it lasts about 5 years on a drive (??? U.V stabalization problems) - so gave up on it (10 years ago). pete

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Since I posted this it is evident that there are those of you who want to put your head in the sand and those that understand we donot have a SAFE TOP COAT to work with.Trust me you donot want to be 80 with poor lung function.This should be a priority of this site.WE NEED TO FIND A SAFE TOP COAT-Lets get involved

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I have been building custom homes for 32 years. Since products are swithing to v.o.c. compliant we have had failures with polyurethane floor finishes (not water base) were the coats are not fusing together. I have seen some of the construction adhesives and caulks turn to useless runny snot right out of the tube. These so called safe products are being shoved into the market with out proper testing and there are issues. The problems arising from laquer base, oil based, and acetate based products are mainly from not using proper ventilation and protection. If you are using ANY products do it with proper ventilation and a respirator and they are much safer to use. I bought an Artograph bench top spray booth for $300.00 and built a panel that replaced a screen in my garage window with two flat style dryer vent outlets. I crank open the window turn on the unit and crack open another window a hair for make up air so the unit can exhaust properly. I am in Michigan with the heat on. I spray automotive two part epoxy sealer and urethane paints with a two part automotive clear all with airbrushes. There are larger bench top units available from Paasche that will keep up with full size guns if that is what you need. The lack of fumes is fantastic. The quality bench top units available work great and are affordable, a small investment for your health. Maintain your respirator and filters correctly. If you think spraying Createx or water based products with out ventilation or a respirator is ok or safe you are mistaken. Contact the company and ask for the MSDS on thier products and see what you are using.

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And keep your respirator in a sealed baggie when you're not using it. The carbon filter inside will keep attracting stuff in the air if it's not seal up, and it will stop working much more quickly.

If it's not too much trouble for you, take the filer cartridge out each time, and put it in a small baggie. Force the air out before you seal the baggie.

Fishthanks,

I agree with everything you say about the safeguards we should take when painting.

And also about the crappy products we're stuck with now.

I'm in residential constuction, too. It's amazing how quickly the oil and chemical companies threw residential and commercial paints under the "save the Ozone" bus without a squeak, and left us with stuff that either doesn't work, or is toxic for humans, but good for the ozone.

The paints and finishes we are left with last 1/3 the time the old sovent base paints did, and so it cost all of us 3 times as much to keep our homes painted.

And if you don't keep up the exterior paint, you face much more expensive replacement of exterior woodwork, doors, and windows.

Out here in SoCal, I push clad doors and windows to my clients. The extra cost for clading is offset almost immediately by the lifetime warrantee on their finishes.

One of my best friends is my painter, but I don't love him enough to push raw wood for the exterior. :o)

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Just a quick thought (I know, there's a first time for everything).

Aren't there portable air filtration systems, like the kind that smokers used to put on their desks at work before the law banning smoking in the workplace?

They might help when you're in a closed place, like a basement, and you've just finished painting or coating.

I think you could leave those types of things running in the shop, and they would clean the air of the residual fumes.

Of course, a truly active air evacuation system in a painting booth is the best way to go, but this might help when you finish painting and turn off the booth's exhaust fan.

I'm fortunate. In SoCal, I open the big garage door, and the small one in back, so I have cross ventilation. And I do all my solvent based rattle can spraying under the big door, with my lures hanging from the tension bar.

But in the winter when it's rainy or cold, I do spray Createx water based paints with the doors closed.

I have some interesting over spray patterns on my stool's cushion. :o)

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