swimbait , very first attempt
183 replies to this topic
Posted 30 August 2008 - 02:54 PM
I think you should go for rather a fat shape with less height to help improving the quantity of ballast that may enter into the body , also if you want to rescue this project you cant try adding ballast on the hooks, it is not so good looking but it can save the work ( use some feathers from a fly fisherman to cover them out )
Posted 31 August 2008 - 06:18 AM
Almost all wood swimbaits will rise if you retrieve them fast, even deep runners.
Without a bill, a slow retrieve is what is required for a deep running swimbait.
I try to counter the rise by putting a shallow groove on the head of my lures, between the eye tie and the top of the head, like some rattle trap lures have.
The more weight you add, the faster you can retrieve it without having it rise.
I've found even the best store bought swimbaits, at least the wood or hard plastic ones, have the same characteristic. I have a Matt Newman swimbait, 11" trout, that has adjustable ballast, so it can be swum on the surface, medium, or deep. It is very heavy and hard to cast all day, and, even with all four tungsten ballast balls in place, it will come up more shallow on a fast retrieve.
Rather than a bad thing, I try to use it as a change of direction, strike-triggering thing.
I think the lure is followed by the fish when it's retrieved slowly at depth, and then the fish thinks the lure is trying to escape when the retrieve is sped up and it starts to rise.
Many times, I cast my sinking swimbaits across a point, let them sink to 10', and then begin a slow retrieve. As they approach the point, I speed them up, as though they see the fish approaching or sense danger, and are trying to escape. Actually, I want the lure to rise so it doesn't get hung up on the rocks. But, by repeating this method, first over the deeper part of the point, and then shallower, and finally right near the shore, the fish are repositioned to their shallow attack station (thank you BBZ) and the last cast brings the bait through their "funnel" zone, the part of the point where they naturally trap their prey by forcing it up against the point and shallow rock.
This method works for largemouth bass. I don't know about pike, but a predator is a predator.
Edited by mark poulson, 31 August 2008 - 06:20 AM.
Posted 31 August 2008 - 09:38 AM
I can't quite picture this groove on the head that you mentioned, would you mind posting a pic?
Posted 31 August 2008 - 05:32 PM
Alex, I'm not sure a photo will show it. I take a radiused file, like a rat tail file, and file a slight groove along the top of the head. Then I use a more gentle round file to widen the groove, so the forehead of the lure is concave. I got the idea from lipless crankbaits made by Yozuri, which have their foreheads kind of scooped out like this.
I guessed it was to help the lure dive faster. So I did it on my swimbaits.
I'll look for one that has a pronounced groove, and, if I find one, I'll take a pic. No promises.
Posted 31 August 2008 - 06:07 PM
Thanks a lot for your advice , folks !
Mark , I assumed , that such a swimbait wouldn't run too deep , when I first saw my little "carp" swimming:yes: .
Your idea of a groove in the head is alright , well worth a try:yay: !
But I also do consider about making the entire upper head portion of a swimbait to act as a diving vane to keep the lure down , though in this case the lures outline won't look too realistic anymore:? .
I have the shape of my "Rolf 's Wiggler"(check gallery , looks a bit similar to a "BajouBoogie") in mind to employ for this purpose .
Heavy weighting to keep the lure down is not the best option to me !
I can imagine that a heavily weighted swimbait could turn to loose action , become "sluggish" in its motions:? !
I believe , that wood lures should not sink faster as 1 1/2 feet per second , otherwise they would act too unnatural in appearance:yes: .
I see point in the lure presentation , that you kindly described , Mark , but I don't think , that it would work out often in that particular water , that I refered to , it has always been "a little different" there:yes: .
Fish are always located quite deep or at bottom due to heavy boating traffic , they most likely only come to the shallows as it gets dark and at night , and I don't do boatfishing lures at this time of day anymore .
But in other , different waters it would surely work out that way , too:yes: !
Greetz , Dieter
Posted 31 August 2008 - 06:20 PM
I remember the pictures of the lakes and rivers you fish, and I can see how point fishing isn't really an option for you.
I work lures more slowly as they get deeper. Realistic features aren't as important when it's deep and dark, but a predator will find a slow, easy meal. I am guessing pike are no exception.
Since the lakes I fish have rocky bottoms, I'm not as worried about snagging my lures in deep brush, so, if they get stuck because I'm working them deep and slow, I drive the boat over the spot and pull from the other direction, and they usually come loose.
The one lake that has lots of big fish, and lots of brush, Lake Casitas in Ojai, CA, has been on a restricted access regime to "protect" it's water infrastructure since the Quagga Mussel was discovered in some of the other SoCal lakes. The lake is, first and foremost, the major drinking water supply for Ventura, so the water board decided it was better to err on the side of caution.
But, if I were in their shoes, I might have made the same choice.
Since I would have to take my boat there to be inspected, and then not fish for a ten day quarantine period before I actually would be allowed on the lake, I don't go there anymore.
Best swimbait lake in SoCal, by far.
Edited by mark poulson, 31 August 2008 - 06:21 PM.
Posted 31 August 2008 - 08:07 PM
Diemai I have in the past made special leaders for musky fishing with egg sinkers fixed torwards the the line tie of the leader. Sometimes you have a shallow running bait you like but wont run deep enough. Clip on this leader and it will drag it down to the depth you need. Experiment with the weight and you will find a happy medium. The leader really doesnt affect the bait as much as you think since the weight is not attached on the lure but the leader itself. I use this in trolling as well as casting works well for me.
Posted 01 September 2008 - 12:54 AM
@ mark poulson
I fish that water, the "Dove-Elbe" racetrack , just similar as you have described .
Let lure sink and work slowly , always having it fall back to bottom frequently . I fish bigger sinking cranks like sinking "SuperShadRaps" or heavy spoons like 1 3/4 ounces "Daredevles" that way , of course also various homemades .
Most other anglers throw plastics there , but for some reason I have a kinda antipathy against them:huh: , I don't tie them on too often , only if it would be the best option , f.e. when drift fishing on more windy days .
If I should snag up , my lure retriever most likely gets them back , at least the two ,-or three hooked cranks and jerks , single hooked lures like plastics , jigging spoons and casting spoons sometimes remain in their "wet grave" .
Just thought , that I could fish swimbaits the same manner , but now I see , that it would still take some more experimenting an trial and error lurebuilding to possibly get there .
(click "SAT" on map for enlargeable sattelite pic)
Its an artificial dug out created in the early 1950's , clay and mud bottom , some few places quite snaggy , since they put housing debris from the war into it .
That alien "Quagga mussel" sounds to be of Australian origin , as I think to figure out by the name .
10 days of quarantine is is impossible to hold up to , won't be able to fish elsewhere during that period , only solution is to have a boat placed steadily on that lake , but who has a boat to spare ?
Thanks a lot for your input about a weighted leader !
I had just remembered to have read about it somewhere , as I read your post , I had entirely forgotten about such an option .
This is the first thing to try , I'm gonna furnish some during this week , so I'd be ready to go for the weekend , and see , what would come out of it:yes: .
There is also a possibility of utilizing sinkers on sidearms or bottom bouncers a few feet ahead of a (floating) lure , to get it close to bottom , but I never could grow much sympathy for that method , since it would be impossible to cast a lure accurately like this .
Better suited for trolling , but trolling is not permitted in many waters over here , for whatsoever reason:( !
That weighted leader sounds a far better option to start out with , thanks a lot:yes: !
greetz , Dieter
Posted 01 September 2008 - 12:54 AM
Why are you trying to complicate things? If you want your swimbait to run deep, I think there is not a better method than to add a lip to it. What would be the problem in this case? Would you be ashamed that you have caught a pike on a wakebait instead of a swimbait?
A lip would surely change the action of the lure, but perhaps it will be for the better.
Posted 01 September 2008 - 01:29 AM
I will surely build one with a lip as well , I am just at the beginning with swimbaits , still a lot to learn and find out about(and so little time) !
And really don't bother about which kind of lures I catch fish on , main thing is , that I catch some at all , lol:lol: !
greetz , Dieter
Posted 01 September 2008 - 09:02 AM
Jamie's idea gave me an idea.
I've use front runners with top waters, little lures with line ties at fore and aft, and a small treble in the belly, tied six inches in front of a walking surface bait, to simulate a fleeing prey species.
I bet you could fashiong a weighted spoon to put just in front of your deep diving swim bait, to get it to stay deeper, and at the same time add some flash, like a fleeing prey species, to catch the attention of Mr. Pike.
Posted 01 September 2008 - 10:39 AM
diemai depending on the lure size you can take a bait right to the bottom just like the botttoma bottom bouncer. Give enough leader(flex leader) between the sinker and the lure you can make a kind of carolina rig out of it and drag it across the bottom just watch for the snags.
Posted 01 September 2008 - 06:20 PM
Thanks a lot about your thoughts guys , but I must admit , that I am kinda lazy about such rig-knoting , need to switch lures easy , so this weighted leader is obviously the first option to try:yes: .
If it should not work well for me , I'd look out further:yes: !
Since I wouldn't like always to cut and re-tie the mainline to rig sinkers or frontrunners , I am thinking about a leadweight , that can be fixed onto the mainline at any desired distance to the attached lure , but without having to cut off the line:? .
Some kind of wire hooks , eyes or corkscrews should do the job , just to wind in or wind around the mainline somehow to fix the weight firmly:? .
Still have to think over the exact configurations:? .
greetz and thanks , Dieter
Posted 01 September 2008 - 07:53 PM
I think what you want are rubber core lead sinkers that you can twist onto your line. They come in all weights, and I know Cabela's sells them. They've been around for as long as I have been fishing, over 50 years now, and I'm sure they're available in Europe.
If not, PM me.
Posted 01 September 2008 - 08:07 PM
Diemai you could take a egg sinker and peg it on the line and then you can move it up and down to give you different lengths if that is what your looking for. They also make a type of sinker, for the life of me I cant remeber the name of it, but its shaped like a egg sinker but it it goes on like a split shot. This weight has a rubber insert inside the weight. Someone please tell me the name of this weight, but any way you can take this weight on and off and it comes in all sizes.
Posted 01 September 2008 - 08:09 PM
Thank you mark on the name of the sinker we were posting at the same time same thought , scary isnt it.
Posted 02 September 2008 - 12:01 AM
Great minds think alike.
Posted 02 September 2008 - 01:04 AM
Hi , Jamie and Mark ,
Thanks a lot for your concerns about my fishing problems .
I've just checked "Cabela's" site to get a clue about these rubber core sinkers:huh: .
Well , I have similar ones down in my basement somewhere , bought them many years ago in the greatest tackleshop around on the other side of Hamburg city , never thought to use these for this purpose(they're also not very heavy) .
But something yet isn't clear to me about these :
Mark , you and "Cabela's" talk about "twisting" them onto the line , Jamie , you talk about "pegging" them !
The ones , that I have , have a core of plastic rather more than rubber . This round kinda wedge is also a little grooved to accommodate a thicker line . So you insert the line into the slot in the lead and peg it with the round wegde , simply !
When talking about "twisting" , do you mean to wind the line in a kind of coil around the rubber insert and then slide the lead onto the line to poke it over the rubber core to lock it in place ?
Have only occasionally used these sinkers for pike-fishing deadbait under a float for fast balancing the weight of different sized baitfish .
Didn't like these sinkers with plastic insert too much , since I am certain , that they might nick a mono line , when pegged .
But braided line , which I exclusively utilize for lurefishing , is softer , not as static as mono line , so I guess , that it won't nick so fast when pegging .
But if it should be so to wind the line around the rubber core , no nicks would occur anyway .
I am sure , that I could find weights like these over here as well , only I probably might have to look around a bit , but local tackle suppliers carry more and more stuff from America(or for American origin methods) , since your methods are gaining more and more popularity over here , the last recent ones were jerkbait ,- and now dropshot fishing .
Greetz , Dieter
Posted 02 September 2008 - 07:37 AM
Rubber core sinkers are elongated egg sinkers, with a large hole down the middle, and a smaller slot all along one side, from top to bottom.
The idea of rubber core sinkers is that the line is laid into the slot that runs from one end of the lead to the other. Already in the slot is a piece of flat rubber with two round ends like tabs, that is a snug fit into the hole in the sinker, but too big to fit through the narrower slot unless it is pulled from both ends to stretch it.
When the line is laid onto the rubber in the slot, first one end of the rubber is pulled and twisted to get the line trapped into the hole in the lead, and then the other, so that the line winds up behind the rubber in the hole. Usually, that is enough pressure to hold the line where you want it, and the line isn't pinched by anything hard.
If you look at the picture in Cabela's again, maybe it will make more sense now.
Posted 02 September 2008 - 05:18 PM
@ mark poulson
Thank you very much , Mark , for your thorough explanation:yes: !
This is something , that I would never have figured out:yes: !
Don't think , that we have such over here , never seen nor heard of this design !
Live and learn:yay: !
But I guess , that these ones with the round plastic wedge will do as well to try , at least with braided line , but I'll still check some local mailorder shops !
Thanks again , Mark
Greetz , Dieter