How do we rid U.S. waters of Asian carp and Northern Snakeheads???

[Spike-A-Pike]

There is another thread that kind of got side tracked on to this subject innocently enough when our Euro Members began comparing fishing in the U.S. and in other countries around the world. Most of us have heard the old expression, "One man's trash is another man's treasure.", and that's about how this subject evolved.

In the UK and Germany, carp are considered to be good table fair... In the U.S. and Australia, they are left on the banks as cat food or fertilizer. The Euro-carp seem to be bred for that purpose and don't have scales (if I read the other thread correctly.

This is the opening to an article published in the mid-west:

"CHICAGO - Fish that leap into passing boats may be a fisherman's fantasy, but scientists fear that hyperactive Asian carp will reach the US Great Lakes, devour the base of the food chain and spoil drinking water for 40 million people.

In less than a decade since escaping southern US fish farms, the hardy and voracious carp have come to dominate sections of the Mississippi River and its tributaries..."

I know that different groups have held events to capture and kill both the Asian carp and the northern snake-head fish; but, for different reasons.

Asian carp

"Asian carp that can grow to 100 pounds (45 kg) filter huge amounts of water, consuming 40 percent of their body weight per day in microscopic plant and animal life that form the foundation of the aquatic food chain. The loss of this food relied on by crayfish and smaller fish such as alewifes, sculpins and perch would in turn eliminate the prey for popular game fish such as salmon, trout and bass.

Lake water would become less cloudy, allowing sunlight to penetrate to greater depths and enhancing algae growth, some of which emit toxins that can cause itchiness, illness and even death. Varieties of toxic blue-green algae already hold an ecological advantage because they are avoided by the zebra mussel, another prolific Great Lakes invader that filters out plankton."

Northern Snakeheads

"Snakeheads grow fast and eat game fish; having no predators, they can overcrowd a body of water and harm native species. They are adapted to survive in water with little oxygen and can even crawl across land for short distances on their fins, taking in oxygen from a special bronchial adaptations. They will not attack people but may injure anyone stepping on them.

Snakehead fish are popular food fish and are considered a delicacy in some places. They are also popular aquarium fish. They have become widespread outside their native range because of the aquarium trade and transport as food fish."

As a concerned sportsman, I want to pass on the fishing and hunting that I have enjoyed over the years to my kids and grandchildren (someday - but Dad's not getting any younger). Is the problem to far along to be reversed or can we get rid of these fish before the damage is permanent? I've never caught either of these types of fish; but if I do, they won't released to do more damage... But, that's me. What about your thoughts on these invaders?

[fishface]

I'm with you Spike-A-Pike. If I ever caught either one, it would not be my usual catch and release. Too much damage is occuring on account of these fish. I don't know if anything is currently being done to stop it though.

[Spike-A-Pike]

To keep the Asian carp from going through the Mississippi River and reaching Lake Michigan, there is a temporary electrical barrier in place that is the only thing actually preventing them from invading those waters. From there, they could travel into all the waterways that flow into the Great Lakes.

The Northern Snakehead is currently a problem on the east coast, but could find a route into the mid-west via the St. Lawrence Waterway and Great Lakes. It seems that this fish was a once prized aquarium stock that somehow got into the wild.

[hazmail]

We have spent zillions (as would U.S) on trying to eradicate carp, here is the latest efforts

Virus may control Australia’s ‘river rabbit’ (Media Release)

CSIRO Corporate Media Release 96/115 , If it is anything like the Cane Toad and Rabbit, we still have a hard road to hoe.

I think there is a fair bit of work being done by CSIRO on genetically neutering them too.pete

Edited July 8, 2008 by hazmail

[diemai]

@ Spike-A-Pike

As far , as I am concerned , the British are not so much into eating freshwater fish as we continental Europeans , nothing to wonder about , since there is no place in the country much further away from the sea as approx. 120 miles(if I hazard a guess) .

At least during my various vacations over there in Oxfordshire in my teenage years I have never had those delicious "Fish and Chips" made of carp:lol:!

I fear , that there hardly are any means to get rid of those aliens in your local waters:(.

There are many different examples , that elsewhere all efforts to remove alien animals out of a native ecological system have failed so far .

With only rod and reel you would not be able to minor the stock of these fish significantly:cry: .

I don't know , how things are handled in the USA , but here in Germany the bigger lakes are in the hands of professional fishermen , these have the fishery rights in that waters hired from the owners(most likely state or county)and take care of the fish stocking and catching , also issue licenses for angling .

They make their living on these lakes and sell the , off course net-caught , fish to restaurants and on markets , partly also market them in own shops .

They surely would not overfish those waters , since they need to keep up their living also in the years to come .

What I mean to say is , that only such a professional fishing , employing all possible methods according to the target species , can minor your problem , but not entirely eliminate it .

Off course those netting and electric methods must be set up in a way not to affect other species too much , which also would be a problem !

It would propably be very costly to do , since it won't pay off , because you obviously do not have a market big enough for carp and snakehead in America .

An export to countries , that do have a market , would probably be too costly as well , therefore economically useless .

So maybe , all of you would have to change your habits about consuming fish(surely you could make fish fingers or burgers out of 'em , too) and set up an intensive fishery:oooh:.

The Europeans have managed to render the Baltic and North Sea almost fishless , so you'd should manage with your lakes as well !

Another , very drastic , method would be to poison the entire water with a biodegreable poison to render it biologically dead and after a recreation time stock it again with native fish:eek: .

But as said before , its too drastic , and surely can't be done against the publics environmental conscience nowadays .

And it is also very unsave , since the aliens would always get back in somehow , since not all waters around can't be handled that way at the same time , because they are needed to provide a new stock of native fish .

No , only extensive net ,- or electric fishing could result into far less numbers of such alien fish , but if no market for human consumption somehow could be raised , who would pay for it ?

Or are there already technologies developped , that could make fuel out of fish ? ?

They can do it with corn , wheat and sugarcane................. !

Just a few thoughts from afar ,

good luck:yay: , diemai

[Travis]

No chance to rid ourselves of them. They are here to stay.

[King Bait Co.]

Spike I have been bit by a snakehead. It wasn't in the wild I was fish setting for a freind while he was moving. I used to raise pirannas when I was in my teens. I would resale them back to the fish store when they got to be 6" to 8". Well needless to say mister snakehead didn't make to many freinds in the with ten black pirannas. He made it a whole 10 seconds. Well back to the thread I think if they were to get tropical fish breeders involed they might be able throw a few ideas that may help. If your into odd fish that you keep in a tank they are comming out with cross breed fish. I think if some of thoes people that do this and wildl fish experts would get together they could make a fish that would eat the eggs of these trash fish we speak of. They could make the new not be able to reproduce. It would take a while to get them thined down but it would put a dent on them I do belive maybe not destroy them but it would be a start. Here is a picture of my hybrid fish I have. They are called Blood Parrot hybrids. They are crossed between sevrumns(not sure if thats spelled right) and red devils. They do come in 10 to fifteen colors. Their is only about three true colors the rest are dyed. Mine are a true orange. They are a nasty tempered fish but the don't reproduce most of the time they will eat their own eggs but you can tell their bad from the get go. Their have been a few cases were they have but its only 1 in 12,000 that will. If they were to be a bright color then they also would get eaten by natural fish which would help control them if some were to reproduce. Not many gold fish make it in lakes a few but its rare to see one. I think the snakehead problem started when a man bought some to make a soup for his sick relative but they got better. Then their custom was to relase the fish to pay a tribute or something like that. He did admit to doing it and gave that reson for doing so. I belive the show is on the History Channel I wanna say its Monsterquest that told about the snakehead problem. The fish crossing is just an idea that may be a little diffrent but it might work.

[King Bait Co.]

Sorry for the crappy picture they never set still on command.

[BassintheGrass]

It seems to me that we need to become the predator in terms of Snakeheads. They are on the rise here in Virginia in the Potomac and we basically kill the snakehead on board and throw it in a cooler and call the VDIGF. Places like along the Potomac and its creeks are full of them. I wish that the game department and both VA and MD would somehow create a rewards program for removing the snakehead. I really would not care if they made it an industry if those Japanese who tend to ove the snakehead so much wanted to buy them. I think they should take anegative and turn it into a positve , to a point. We certainly do not want to see this become a harvest industry but these fish are beginning to destroy habitats. Not only bass but also channel catfish in the rivers. The reproduction rates are crazy so we have to do something. Some of my best spots on the Potomac have been overrun by them and most likely the snakeheads have cleaned out the honey holes for good now.

[King Bait Co.]

Hey BassintheGrass if you get into them again put many as you can on ice. Then take them to an Asian market and sell them to the store I will posative they will buy them up in a heartbeat. You would be doing your part in trying to keep your waters safe. Thats what I would do I sell carp and crappie to them at the lakes for $0.75 a pound my scale of course. Crappie I charge $5 for fourteen inch and scale down when they are smaller. I haven't done it much this year but they will pay.

[yankee jigger]

For those of you guys that have seen footage of the asian carp jumping around boats by the hundreds,try living thru it.

My son and i were on the Illinois River back in june,tucked behind Twin Sisters Island around Henry Illinois when all hell broke loose.

We heard bangs off the boat and after looking towards the back of the boat seen literally hundreds of huge Asian Carp going ballistic.Bouncing off the bow,stern,outboard...it was SCARY!!!!!!!!!!!!

I ended up stuffing my 8 yo son under the console and hauled ass.

From what i heard from members of the Spring Valley Walleye Club,66% of the biomass of the Illinois river or maybe certain pools is the Asian Carp.

Want to get rid of them???Have our crappy state goverment subsidize a commercial operation to get them out.

Cat food??????Fertilizer?????????

I dont care what they do with them but get rid of em.

[jimmie7915]

About ten to twelve years ago a couple of my buddies and I had A couple of snakeheads in a 50 gallon tank(when you could buy them at the pet shop) We had no idea of what these were when buying them we just thought they looked cool. I can honestly say that they are the meanest fish I've ever seen.Those things ran thru every fish in the tank. We could put 2 dozen goldfish in the tank and they would eat every one of them at once. We were amazed at how many they could eat. They looked deformed when they were done with them , and I'm talking about a fish that was only three or four inches long at the time. It was amazing to see these things in action. After a while we were down to the 2 of them and an oscar that had to be at least a pound an a half. Well we didnt feed them for a couple of days once and the bigger snakehead devoured the smaller one. Woke up one day hungover rubbing my eyes looked over and all that was left was the backbone. Then eventually the snakehead got to about 7 inches or so and sure enough the damb thing killed the Oscar. Well the thing stayed by himself for about the next six months until I awoke again one morning really hungover (I pretty much stayed that way when I was alot younger) and stepped on the sob in the kitchen. I don't know if he died when I stepped on him or if he was already dead but it had blasted thru the lid on the tank and was about 15 ft. from the tank. Anyways to make a long story short these fish are nuts!

[JSC]

I don't anything about the Snake Heads (Thank Goodness) but the Grass Carp is a real problem and so far it has not been enough of an issue (Politicaly) to get any publicity on them as they have been stocked in several lakes and ponds to keep down the vegitation. Example Deer Point Lake In Panama City, FL Area ... They stocked them there .. suppose to be Nutered (SP) .. who knows if it working .. consiquently if you have one in possesion regardless of where it was caught you are subject to a fine. Here on the Choctawhatchee I have watched them eat every little bit of vegation they can find even seen them eat whip grass .. Before the Grass Carp around the mouth of the river during a lot of hi water years the milfoil and eel grass would be abundant and rasing fish .... we went thru one of the worst floods ever several years back and the grass carp ate it all before it could get started .... The archery Fishermen would love to be able to shoot them in the tournaments they have and there is an underground market for them. Polotics as usual is keeping anything from being done ... they are still beliving that they cannot reproduce.. Go figure ...

Off Of Soap Box.

JSC

[Spike-A-Pike]

Truth be known, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I guess we just aren't making enough noise to get the law maker's attention. I live in Illinois and yet there is next to nothing mentioned in the news about the problems posed by the Asian Carp. If the water supply of a city the size Chicago isn't enough to prompt Federal action, I have to assume they are getting paid off by the "Bottled Water Lobby".

I can't see exchanging one problem for another. Poisons won't solve the problem and I worry if a new predator is bred to feed on the Carp is more productive or destructive, you'll probably have only added a new fish that you can't control. That's just plain stupid. I feel anyone releasing a non-native species (fish) into the wild, intentionally or accidentally, should be prosecuted to the full extent that the law allows and a review of those penalties should completed to ensure they are strong enough - Do you suppose lethal injection is just a tad excessive? Kidding folks; just kidding - Geez.

Edited July 9, 2008 by Spike-A-Pike

[BassAddict]

We have a virus going through many of our southern ontario lakes right now killing alot of common carp. And I mean ALOT are dying to the point where it is a water hazard !!! Maybe it will make its way down there, that would solve your carp problems, other that the stink of them piled up on shore.

[mark poulson]

Nuke 'em!!!

[KcDano]

Anybody heard of these?

Asian carp shoots. The benefits are two-fold, insomuch as it helps to eliminate the evasive species and provides the angler/hunter practice before gun season. Carp shoots, are similar to trap shooting.

Shooter is stationed at the rear of the boat as it travels through the infested waters shooting the carp as they become airborne.

Safety and environmental concerns have been addressed to ensure a safe and enjoyable experience for all the participants and spectators alike. No lead shot! Boat is required to have shielding to prevent injury to the pilot and shooter from jumping carp. The safety provided by the shielding lessens the probability of an accidental discharge and personal injury.

Carp shoots challenge the beginner and seasoned pro. By offering different levels of skill to compete within. The competition levels are defined by the speed at which the boat travels through the water. There is an extreme class for those who have demonstrate a proficiency in scoring with a single ballistic firearm.

[Spike-A-Pike]

We have a virus going through many of our southern ontario lakes right now killing alot of common carp. And I mean ALOT are dying to the point where it is a water hazard !!! Maybe it will make its way down there, that would solve your carp problems, other that the stink of them piled up on shore.

BassAddict,

Are the dead carp just being left to rot on the shore? I would think the flies, and there potential to carry decease, would be a real health concern. In the mid-90s, I worked with Canadian Air Force personnel developing a patient casualty tracking, treatment scheduling and medical evacuation application. I know how pro-active the Canadian Air Force is and was lead to believe that was the same of their civilian health care system.

The thought of all those dead fish reminds me of the Alewife invasion into Lake Michigan through the St. Lawrence Waterway and Wisconsin is trying to prevent the spread of viral hemorrhagic septicemia, or VHS into their fisheries. I would further like to point out that any of the invasive invaders that have traveled that far West or North that they are a threat to Wisconsin Waters has had to travel some distance already and isn't likely to be a short term problem - intentionally, the boundary waters are at risk too.

We, as a group of united sportsmen, may be able to get some funds to be directed at addressing these invaders of our fisheries. As of mid-June 2008, VHS is being found in Yellow Perch right off shore of Milwaukee. VHS is not a human health threat, but can kill a wide range of native game fish, panfish and bait fish.

It was first diagnosed in the Great Lakes region in 2005, and caused large fish kills in the lower Great Lakes in 2005 and 2006. The perch VHS results are significant because perch is an important sport and commercial species, and the population in southern Lake Michigan has been depressed for about 15 years and prompted the end of commercial perch fishing about a decade ago.

This one cause I think is worth getting up on the soap box and demanding a corrective course of action.

[Gloomisman]

I've heard of people shooting them when they jump. Not suppose to because of regs in MO though.

[Travis]

Bruce you sound as if no one has looked into the problem. I can assure you that these invasive species are of concern and not over looked. The fact is plain and simple their is no truely effective method (at this time) to rid ourselves of these pests. Many are working on it from government to private individals (big money if someone can do it). We have introduced them into our waterways and now will have to live with them add them to the ever growing list of non natives introduced into our waterways. Man doens't exactly have a great track record for removal on introduced species and to be honest they will most likely forever be found in many of our waterways we can basically just hope to minimize their impact with out further straining our fisheries.

http://www.asiancarp.org/Documents/Carps_Management_Plan.pdf

[Spike-A-Pike]

Travis,

I am only 15 pages into the report you posted to by the U.S. Department of Fish and Wildlife and I am pleased that some action is being taken. One of the simplest things anglers can do is to make sure they is know the risks associated with water transfers by recreational watercraft. Inform boaters and fishermen of the risks of moving infested water and encourage voluntary actions to reduce this risk - in other words, prior to trailering your boats, pump out your livewells of water added from the waterway you are departing. Once your boat is on the trailer, pull the drain plug at the boat ramp. If you have brought water in livewelss or to transport baitfish, DO NOT empety the water into waterway you are leaving.

The tone of the report put out by USDFW is encouraging - I just hope boaters and anglers will read and retain the information and do what is in their powder to do their part in stoping the spread. Thanks again Travis.

[King Bait Co.]

Bruce you sound as if no one has looked into the problem. I can assure you that these invasive species are of concern and not over looked. The fact is plain and simple their is no truely effective method (at this time) to rid ourselves of these pests. Many are working on it from government to private individals (big money if someone can do it). We have introduced them into our waterways and now will have to live with them add them to the ever growing list of non natives introduced into our waterways. Man doens't exactly have a great track record for removal on introduced species and to be honest they will most likely forever be found in many of our waterways we can basically just hope to minimize their impact with out further straining our fisheries.

http://www.asiancarp.org/Documents/Carps_Management_Plan.pdf

I thought they got into the rivers when the Missippi river flooded. I think they were at a fishery near the river. I can't rember what they were using them for. I don't think they were introduced.

[yankee jigger]

I thought they got into the rivers when the Missippi river flooded. I think they were at a fishery near the river. I can't rember what they were using them for. I don't think they were introduced.

Badda bing,Badda boom............

It was flooded fish farms in Arkansas that did it.

What the hell were they doing with them??????

[JSC]

Travis I really appreciate you posting the PDF ... every one who has an intrest in this should download it as it is a 251 page document .... I have read part of it and scanned the rest and know I will be going back to answer more questions. It has answered several questions I had ..

Since My River heads in Alabama I see that they have no restrictions therefore some of the ponds could have had reproducing fish in them ( will check this out a little further) and from those ponds during some of the flood years where there were many dams broken have stocked the watershed with them (grass carp) .. I all ready knew from where I have seen them that they could stand a lot of salt ... I have had some guys see them in the edge of the bay and thought they were big red fish ... fact I did for a while until I got a good look at them (they spook easier than a Red fish) ....

Boy after seeing this report shows me how really bad it is in some areas and it looks like the Mississippi River and water shed is hit the hardest by these other Asian Carp as well ... this report informed me as to why I had not see the jumping as this is the Silver Carp that has not been seen in this area.

Again thanks a lot and if you guys get a chance download a copy and it will answer a lot of your questions ... I know there is a lot of BS that you have to wade thru to get to the heart of it but worth the effort.

JSC

[Travis]

No problem guys. Introduction meaning simply the addition of the species to a new ecosystem, either intentional or non. Many catfish farms used carp to help control algae and snails (intermediate host of detremental fluke). Many of the carp then could be harvested and sold (catfish farm I visited sold to "Chinatown" regions within the states). With the close proximity of some of these farms to open waterways, as mentioned, flooding spread them into our waters. Now some areas these species make up nearly 80% of the fish population. Commercial harvesting has been widely debated. American public, as a whole, not exactly prone to accept carp as an edible species. So animal feed and fertilizers being more likely first uses.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Travis