OOOOOH? ouch! I think you have plenty of secrets. Like your fishing hole or where you skinny dip.
No secret where I skinny dip. My backyard, in the jacuzzi.
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Thinning Epoxy with Fingernail Polish Remover
47 replies to this topic
Posted 07 August 2008 - 08:01 PM
No secret where I skinny dip. My backyard, in the jacuzzi.
Posted 07 August 2008 - 08:07 PM
OK! OK! Thank you for your help. Still have your epoxy and your fishing hole.
Posted 08 August 2008 - 09:45 AM
I hate to bring this up again but Devcon yellows in about 1 day. The higher the heat the faster it will yellow. No clear coat is the best, you just have to find what works for you. I do enjoy reading about all the different clear coats that everybody uses. It's a lot of very good info.
Posted 08 August 2008 - 10:27 AM
When I first started using Etex, I called their help number from their website, and spoke with a woman who was very helpful.
I subsequent emails she said the best thing to thin Etex with was denatured alcohol.
I don't thin it myself, but that's what she said.
I've learned that, in mixing D2T, it's important to mix it thoroughly without any thinning first, let it sit for a minute to make sure all the separate chemicals have had a chance to really interact, and then coat with it. Any alcohol contamination, like on a mixing stick that's been soaking in alcohol, seems to mess up the mix. Etex is a little more forgiving.
I haven't found the need to slow down the D2T. I just mix enough to do one or two lures at a time. Mixing more isn't that big a deal, and it mixes up and goes on so fast it doesn't take that much extra time.
And I only use D2T for plastic cranks, or to coat the insides of my swimbait joints, or for gluing in hardware and lips, so I don't ever need a big batch. For the big faces on my wooden swimbaits and gliders, I use Etex.
Posted 08 August 2008 - 11:01 AM
It was said here that acetone is way too fast to thin epoxy. I agree. I do not like acetone, because it evaporates too fast, causing problems like clouding. Instead, I use a thinner desighed for "nitrocellulosic products". It says on the label that it contains toluene, acetone and buthyl acetate. I use it both for thinning epoxy and to dissolve propionate. The propionate solution would produce sometimes the clouding effect, but this is really an exception, and it happens when the air has a lot of moisture in it.
Once I made a thick propionate solution using acetone as a solvent. I dipped the lure in it, and when it cured I saw it lost some colour(it was cloudy), but the clearcoat was a perfect matte finish. I dipped a lure having several coats of normal, thin propionate solution as sealer into this thick solution of propionate and it happened again. It lost colour but the matte finish was perfect.There was a question in the past about matte finish (don't remember who's question it was), that's why I mentioned it. Then I dipped both lures in the normal thin solution of propionate+thinner and the colour and the gloss were back again.
I do not like to use the epoxy as it is, I like to thin it. I usually make crankbaits using the printing foil technique, and I noticed that unthinned epoxy would not let the foil come through. But if I used thinned epoxy, the foil shines through the image of the fish. It is clearly the thinner which makes the difference.
It was also said by TU members that some types of epoxies have already some thinner in them (off the shelf, of course). I think that this would mean that both components have some thinner.
At least some types of epoxies can be used together with thinners. Just google "epoxy thinner" and see the results. Maybe someone could explain me if such thinners are used for 2 component epoxies or just for one component.
The picture below is meant to make the difference between a lure topcoated with unthinned epoxy (the one on the top) and a lure where thinned epoxy was used as a clearcoat (the smaller one). The foil was exactly the same for both lures.
I do not have 2 pcs. of the same lure to show you the difference, but I think the picture speaks for itself, even though when you look at the real thing the difference is higher than in the picture.
I admit that if you paint your lures you do not have to use your head with such problems.
Posted 08 August 2008 - 06:30 PM
To the best of my knowledge, you can thin any 2-part epoxy. The amount of solvent used to thin epoxies can vary from brand or type. Glue-types are generally pretty high in viscosity and will probably need reducing. 100% solids epoxies made for coatings applications are thinner by nature and would flow right over that foil beautifully. Even beyond viscosity, cure time is a major factor for flowing over surfaces. It needs to stay fluid long enough to wet out all the surfaces properly. That's why I preach slow-cure.
As for your acetone problem, it's not just that it dries too fast. Epoxies have limited solubility in acetone. You need a blend of a ketone(s) and toluene. 75:25
Posted 08 August 2008 - 06:49 PM
Why does D2T stay tacky if you mix in a thinner before the two part mix is thoroughly mixed?
I'm guessing the thinner bonds to one part better than the other, and screws up the mix if they're not already mixed before it's added.
But I'm certainly no chemist, or epoxy solvent expert, although I have tested my share of alcohol "solvents".
Posted 08 August 2008 - 07:25 PM
Some epoxies react with hydrogen and/or oxygen as part of their curing process. Alcohol contains hydrogen and oxygen molecules that will react with the epoxy before it can react with the hardener. Alcohol is low viscosity, so those molecules are flowing around linking with the resin faster than the hardener can. I'm about positive that even if you used it after the mix, you're still not getting a full cure. If you thin it with DNA, I'd bump the hardener up 10% or so and see what happens. Should get a much better cure and ALOT less yellowing. Remember that an improperly cured film will yellow very fast, no matter what quality epoxy you use.
Edited by Downriver Tackle, 08 August 2008 - 07:29 PM.
Posted 08 August 2008 - 07:55 PM
Down River that mix ratio of keytone and toluene isn't that close to lacquer retarder?
Posted 08 August 2008 - 08:18 PM
Pretty close. Old-school lacquer thinner. Component systems vinyl thinner is the closest out there. Available at Cabelas, Gander, etc. Gotta watch "lacquer thinners" out there. Most contain alcohols aren't good for 2-component paints.
I hope I didn't open up a can of worms. LOL One thing to remember if you're brushing your epoxy and thinning with strong solvents. Use the thinner sparingly. Some underlying paint systems may wrinkle if you use too much.
Posted 08 August 2008 - 09:57 PM
I now see it all. Thank you Downriver Tackle for sharing your knowledge. Nice site to!
Posted 09 August 2008 - 04:55 AM
Do you have any experience with Minwax Wood Hardener? I used it for the first time as a sealer on a wooden lure, and the lure cracked when I left it in the heat.
I used Krylon white primer over it, then Auto Aire water based aluminum, opaque water based Createx, water based Wildlife Colors iridescent violet, Krylon spray glitter, Krylon spray clear with UV inhibiters, and then two coats of Etex.
The top of the head split and peeled, down to the primer, which seems tacky.
I wonder if the sealer and primer didn't bond, or if the sealer still had solvents left in it.
The Wood Hardener is some kind of a polymer that restores rotten wood to structurally sound.
Looks like I'll be stripping and redoing at least the head of that lure.
And I guess I'll have to put the rest of them in the garage between trips, to keep them from getting too hot.
Posted 09 August 2008 - 08:29 AM
No, I haven't used that before.
That aluminum would be my first suspect. I t takes a long time to dry and properly cure. That's happened to me. Something in that combo didn't cure correctly or you had a really hard paint up against a softer paint. I try to use Autoair all the way through the colors. They've already done all the r&d work and know they're paint works together in a system. When I'm using that many layers also, I make absolutely x-tra sure everything is fully cured before I clear it.
Posted 10 August 2008 - 10:33 AM
I examined the lure under sunlight, and it really looks like something in the paint scheme bubbled on the top of the head under the 110+ degree heat under my boat cover, and caused the epoxy to bubble and crack.
The white Krylon primer is what's left under the peeled section, so I think either it was too thick, and not fully cured, or the opaque black that went over it wasn't fully dried, so water vapor developed, causing a bubble and cracking. The Auto Aire alum was put on the belly and lower sides, and then the black went over the middle and upper sides and back. Then I put the auto air over the sides and shoulders as a scale pattern. The paint scheme come off with the Etex Lite epoxy, all the way down to the primer which is still on the lure.
Anyway, I'm going to redo the front section (gotta love removable pin hinges) and repaint it the same way, only drying it better between coats.
And I'm taking my lures off after I fish them, and putting them in the garage, instead of baking them under my boat cover.
Live and learn.
Posted 11 August 2008 - 01:12 AM
Your problem may have nothing to do with chemistry, but with physics.
If you sealed the wood at low temperature, heat would expand anything which is left in the wood (air, acetone, water, etc) and so such problems will certainly appear if the difference in temperature is very high. To diminish the possibility of physics cracking your lures, you simply have to seal your lures at a higher temperature (preheat them before sealing). And you will do nothing wrong if you preheat them before any other layer you add to them. That's because the clearcoat will always crack from inside out, not from the pressure from the outside the lure. The lure can stand a high pressure from the outside.
If, in the case you described, you saw that the primer was not cracked, that doesn't mean a thing. The situation may be that air escaped from the lure, but did nor crack the primer, it just went through it, causing the problems to other layers.
Posted 11 August 2008 - 12:51 PM
I wonder if it was the Minwax Wood Hardner that I used as a sealer this time. Maybe it off gasses for a longer time than their Polyacrylic Sealer that I had been using.
Or maybe I put the primer on too thick, and it still had some solvents buried in it.
Whichever it is, I sanded the damaged section down to the primer, reprimed it with two light coats, hit it with the hair dryer, and am letting it hang in my garage which is up to 75+ degrees al;ready, and it's only 10:45 in the morning.
I will hair dry it again before I start my painting, and really well between coats, and let it sit for a day before I put on the glitter and topcoat.
Mostly, I'll keep the lures out from under the black boat cover in the summer, where temps get up over 100 degrees every day.
Posted 11 August 2008 - 03:21 PM
There's an easy way to tell if a layer wasn't fully cured. Too late because you already repainted. Next time, take a piece of very sticky tape, nylon tape prefered. If not, duct tape. Lay it across the crack, press down real well, then rip it off perpendicular to the crack. You''ll have some paint on the tape. Look to see which layer failed. If that layer is on both the chip and the lure still, it was too soft or under cured. If it was a clean delamination of a layer, it was and adhesion issue of some sorts.
If that wood hardener, or any of the paints, had mineral spirits in it, that stuff is a pain to get out of the film! Even after heat-curing, I'd wait 24 hours before putting anything else over it, especially something waterbased.
Edited by Downriver Tackle, 11 August 2008 - 03:23 PM.
Posted 11 August 2008 - 08:37 PM
That's a slick idea! I found that the white primer had stuck both to the epoxy/paint section, and to the lure, so it had to be the weak link. I think I just put it on too thick, and didn't give it a chance to really cure. Operator error.
Man, I hate when there's no one to blame but me!
I will be keeping the lures out of the heat. Direct sunlight heat seems to be okay, but baking under the boat cover just cooks the lures.
Posted 11 August 2008 - 08:47 PM
Maybe use that "under the cover" set-up as your drying cabinet.
Posted 12 August 2008 - 01:22 AM
Yes, Downriver T. is right. That space under the black cover could be an excellent dryer for your lures:lol:
I was thinking to suggest that you paint that black cover in white, so if you forget your lures there, you will not have such problems anymore. And you could make a drying box at home, painted in black:)
But what I wanted to say earlier is that physics will take it's toll on every chemical you may find on the market, regardless of quality. So you do not have to think that a stuff like Minwax may be the culprit.
What you have to think of in the first place is how to reduce the difference between the 2 temperatures: the one at which you have sealed your lures, and the one under the cover of your boat.
Everything you say about thin layers of paint which have to dry perfectly before applying another coat is right, but this hobby requires a physics orientated mind as well.