borderbasser

wood to wood glue?

57 posts in this topic

Thanks bdhaeh. The hinges are made from a dowel, but I'm not sure what kind of wood it is. One word of caution though on this set up...especially on the smaller baits. On the bass bait, I was able to pull the tail section apart during a stress test (I used Devcon 5min), but I just reglued it since the tail section should not have much stress on it since there is no hook hanger on it. The only think that worries me is it may hit the water hard and just right and break it loose again. The problem, if you look is obvious. The part that seperated was the top hinge (could have just as easily been the bottom). If you look, there is not much glue surface there due to the profile of the bait. If you will go back and look at the pic of the bait that has not been painted, I reversed the hinge on the tail. In other words the top and bottom hinges are glued to the midsection and the middle one is glued to the tail. By doing this, I was able to get more glue surface on the top and bottom without sacrificing the glue surface of the middle one. I hope that makes sense. Oh, and by the way I don't have a video of the bait...wish I did.

TJ

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The problem is that you're glueing to end grain on the lure itself. End grain is usually closed, so there's no way for a good mechanical penetration. But the hinge method is too nice to give up on. And the dowel stock is probably birch, since that's what most lumber yards stock.

One thing you might do is some oval sst wires, like an elongated C, that would embed in epoxy in the lure body, and in the face of the hinge. It's a little more work but it would provide a good penetration into the lure body, instead of just a face glueing situation. I think it would be relatively simple to embed them into the hinge first, making sure there is not overflow onto the round hinge face. After it sets, sand again, and put the epoxy on the lure body, filling the holes where the sst wires will seat. Then put it together, tape it, and clean the excess with alcohol. I think it might be too hard to get it right if you try to do it all at once.

Edited by mark poulson

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The problem is that you're glueing to end grain on the lure itself. End grain is usually closed, so there's no way for a good mechanical penetration. But the hinge method is too nice to give up on. And the dowel stock is probably birch, since that's what most lumber yards stock.

One thing you might do is some oval sst wires, like an elongated C, that would embed in epoxy in the lure body, and in the face of the hinge. It's a little more work but it would provide a good penetration into the lure body, instead of just a face glueing situation. I think it would be relatively simple to embed them into the hinge first, making sure there is not overflow onto the round hinge face. After it sets, sand again, and put the epoxy on the lure body, filling the holes where the sst wires will seat. Then put it together, tape it, and clean the excess with alcohol. I think it might be too hard to get it right if you try to do it all at once.

Hey Mark, what if you joined the two pieces with twisted wires? Drill holes in the dowel, epoxy in two twisted sst wires, when set drill matching holes in the body section and glue dowel in? Sounds like it would work to me, but what do I know?:halo:

David

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One thing I have considered trying is cutting a groove around the hinge and wrapping a sst wire around it set in the groove, and then on the backside twist the wire together like a hanger. Then, just drill a hole in the body where the glue surface is and glue it all up. Ofcourse, for asthetic reasons, a guy would probably want to fill in the groove with epoxy or something else, and sand smooth so there is no evidence of the wire. That is what is keeping me from doing it...seems kinda labor intensive. I have really been avoiding doing this anyway if possible, because it is so nice not having to deal with the problem of having the hangars and the hinges crossing paths inside the bait. So far though, I haven't had much luck pulling the hinges apart on the larger sections. I haven't pulled with quite all my might, but I think I have pulled on them much harder than any bass is going to. The only way to know though is to just go and fish'em and see what happens.

TJ

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TJ, I want to thank you for this thread, and your ideas on hinges. Last night I modified one of my wooden baits that I had not finished. It was already shaped for the hook-eye/pin hinge, so I just used my drum sander to shape the joints for a 5/8 dowel, measured the distance, cut dowel, then cut into three pcs., glued them in, voial, had the best performing hinges I have ever had. Didn't look nearly as good as yours, but with practice who knows. Many thanks for your insight and pics.

David

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Hey Mark, what if you joined the two pieces with twisted wires? Drill holes in the dowel, epoxy in two twisted sst wires, when set drill matching holes in the body section and glue dowel in? Sounds like it would work to me, but what do I know?:halo:

David

I don't see why it wouldn't. Twist wires hold for hinges and hook hangers, so they should work for this, too.

All we're trying to get is a "steel reinforced" glue joint, so we get the benefits of both the rigid glue and the flexible sst wire.

Kind of like steel reinforced concrete, where the concrete is strong in compression, and the steel is strong in tension, and the two work together to make a material that has both characteristics.

Another thing that might work is cutting vertical grooves in the curved face of the lure body before the hinge is glued in, so there is some kind of a mechanical connection into the body of the lure.

But I think some kind of sst wired reinforcing is important.

The idea of cutting a small groove around the hinge cylinder, and then looping sst wire around in the groove, twisting the tag ends and cutting them off with enough left for good penetration into the lure body "dowel holes" is probably the best idea so far, since it answers all the concerns in the most simple way, as long as it's not too hard to hide the wire for cosmetics. Although that might not be an issue if it's done neatly. You could probably use a tubing cutter to score the cylinder deeply enough to make the wire flush.

Edited by mark poulson

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@ mark poulson

Hi , Mark , a mechanical bond in addition of the glue bond would certainly enhance stability of the hinges , that's for sure:yes: .

I think , just drilling one(or even two) holes centered horizontally through the round dowel portions and into the curved face would be the easiest way to do:? .

When glueing all together , a (or two) round pin of wood is placed through this hole , potruding a little and thoroughly bonded with glue as well(a snug dry fit is essential) .

The small vertical hinge pin bore could lead trough this wood pin as well , shouldn't be a problem , since everything is glued well .

The wood pin portion potruding over the round dowels circumference can be easily sanded flush after curing for a neat look and to insure proper function of hinge .

I guess , such a wood pin and glue bond is very often used on furniture parts .

greetz , Dieter

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Dieter,

You made me laugh at myself. I'm a carpenter, I worked with dowels at lot years ago, I have a couple of doweling jigs in my garage and a bag full of wood dowels, and I never thought of using wood dowels for this, which would make perfect sense. :o:lol::lol:

Talk about, "Can't see the forest for the trees".

Wood dowel glued into wood makes the most sense of all!

That joint would probably outlast the fisherman. :worship:

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Deimai, I think you may be on to something. I have thought about how in the world I could attach a "post" to the hinge and drill a corresponding hole for it to fit in to the body but for some reason all I have considered was metal. Their is no reason why it can't be done with a small dowel instead. Just drill a hole in the hinge for the dowel to be glued in...if it covers the hinge pin hole, just redrill the hole and bore through the dowel...simple. The only problem I can see with this, would be for the smaller hinges on the tail...there is just not much room. I think I am going to have do a little more creative thinking on this. Thanks again.

TJ

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bb,

The beauty of using wood dowel pins is that you can glue the hinge sections in place, and then drill right through the hinge cylinder into the lure, so everything lines up perfectly. Just be sure to relieve the dowel pin enough, either by sanding it flat on several faces, or sanding it slightly smaller where it enters the lure body, so you don't have it so tight that it won't go in, and won't make a glue starved joint. Myself, I'd sand three flats on the dowel, make the hole a little sloppy, and then rotate the dowel in the hole after I'd put it in. You have to apply glue to both the dowel and in the hole, so there is no dry area, and the dowel should force the excess glue back out along the flats you've sanded onto the length of the dowels. If you don't have some kind of a relief or play, like the grooves in store bought dowels, the pressure of the trapped glue, hydraulic pressure, will split the lure body, sure as shootin', or it will just freeze part way in and you'll have to drill it out and start all over.

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@ mark poulson

Hi , Mark , we have the same term about "forest and trees" in German language as well:yes: .

Sometimes you're hooked up onto something so much , that you won't consider about different , maybe easier solutions , that's normal:huh::yes: .

Between 79' and '82 I have gone through an apprenticeship as a toolmaker , after I have worked for 10 years on special grinding machines to furnish single assembly parts(did a lot for the German "Lufthansa" , "Boeing" aircraft engine maintainance devices , for example) , so we always had to think of different solutions to furnish those parts to attain requested accuracy .

Now I am precision grinding hobs , which is rather more a series production with repeative working processes , but since our customers request new designs and shapes from time to time , I frequently have to think about solutions as well how to fix those into my machines there for working on them .

@ Borderbasser

I guess , even if having only small space at the rear section , a very thin wood dowel pin would do , it could only be a thin(approx. 3 mm)barbecue stick of bamboo(to poke pieces of meat and onions on ) , you might even drill the hinge pin bore through it , the glue would still bond it almost halfway into the round hinge dowel .

In every case you would attain more "glueing" surface , thus more stability .

Greetz , Dieter

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Borderbasser - I just got onto this thread, very fine work on those lures/hinges, great lateral thinking with the dowel and pin. pete

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How would you prevent the dowel from wearing the finish down and swelling. Which would bind the rotation.

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Maybe, the perfect dowel would be a synthetic dowel; not wood. Dowel pins made from high-strength synthetic materials such as PVC, Nylon, Extren & phenolics are on the market and most if not all can be worked with wood tools.

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On the bluegill bait, I had to sand the hinges down some to allow clearance for the epoxy finish. The bass bait, I didn't allow for much clearance, but I am going to try to spary Dick Nite's finish since it is so thin. I figure I will spray 1-2 coats on the hinges and try to build the finish up on the rest of the bait. Thanks for the comments guys.

TJ

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@ KcDano

Don't think , that there would be much wear occuring with clearcoat rubbing on clearcoat , only when clearcoat is rubbing on uneven or rough-surfaced metal(provided , that it is chosen rigid and hard enough):? .

Have some simple sreweye-jointed homemade cranks , designed in a way , so that their sections would constantly hit one another on retrieve to generate noise , no signs of wear to be seen on them , though in use already for several seasons :yes:.

Greetz , Dieter

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What I would really like to do is make a swimbait that I'm 100% satisfied with and make a mold of it. I just don't know how strong it would be at the hinges if using foam. I guess it can be made out of Alumalite (sp?), but I am not familiar with that stuff either. This would be opening up a whole new can of worms for me since I have never experimented with molds for hard baits. The main reason I haven't is because I don't sell my baits and it seems like it would be a lot of work for personal use. Anyway, what do you guys think about the hinge strength of these materials?

TJ

TJ

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Solvent based contact cement can fail in sunlight/heat. Be sure it's really cured out before you proceed.

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The Alumilite should do fine. Be sure to mix exactly as recommended. I hope to have a definite answer shortly as I am still working on building a bait that I am completely satisfied with before making the mold. Not sure how long this will be, but it should be in the next week, I hope.

David

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Thought it would be of benifit as it was mentioned earlier by Jerry (no good for hinges) to post a pick of the Foaming Polyurethane wood adhesive. This is the stuff you spray with water. Good for filling gaps if through wiring. You can see the hook hanger ring in this picture.

DSCF0743.jpg

Spread real thin on one surface, mist spray one surface, clamp, wait 5 mins and unclamp. The excess can be removed easily and the joint sanded in around 20 to 30 mins.

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Looks like frogs eggs Phil ! ! Maybe we could us this stuff as a bait?? Good glue too. pete

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Thought it would be of benifit as it was mentioned earlier by Jerry (no good for hinges) to post a pick of the Foaming Polyurethane wood adhesive. This is the stuff you spray with water. Good for filling gaps if through wiring. You can see the hook hanger ring in this picture.

DSCF0743.jpg

Spread real thin on one surface, mist spray one surface, clamp, wait 5 mins and unclamp. The excess can be removed easily and the joint sanded in around 20 to 30 mins.

Philb Ive never used this type of glue for baits , does this glue have any reaction with e-tex lite when clearing? This is on the same line of glue as gorilla glue right? Like to try something new but needsome info.

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Hi Jamie

I cannot answer your question yet as I have not coated any of the baits I have made so far with this type of adhesive. There should not be a problem though for me as all I am using the adhesive for is jointing woods together, I am then sealing them prior to painting and ultimately coating with Etex, in theory the glue should not come into contact with the finish coat. I have started using this type of adhesive as I have had trouble in the past with air pockets within the bait body after through wiring.

What I can tell you though is the adhesive is very quick and extremely strong also it is waterproof. I have tried to part two halves and simply cannot. The glue is stronger than the wood.

I do not consider an adhesive being waterproof is of any real benefit because if a bait suffers from water ingression then it it not a worthy construction and will fail as a usable lure, at the end of the day a lure has to be waterproof for longevity this is why so much time is spent on sealing and coating.

I will of course post on the board any problems or related info as it occurs.

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