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wood to wood glue?
56 replies to this topic
Posted 20 August 2008 - 09:10 AM
Have a question for you but it is off topic. Will send pm.
oops! can't send you a private msg. NM
Posted 21 August 2008 - 09:55 AM
Try using masking tape to hold the parts until the glue sets. Or duct tape, or scotch tape, or any tape that will hold them. Masking tape is just cheap, and easier to handle than the other types.
If you have a close fitting joint, the wood glues mentioned will have enough strength to hold, and the joint will fail in the wood itself, not at the glue joint.
Do you drill the female part of you hinge slot after you've shaped everything as one?
You do some nice carving, and that's a clever hinging method.
Posted 21 August 2008 - 12:57 PM
Thanks Mark. I didn't think about using tape. I build the bait as one solid piece. Before I cut out the profile from the block, I drill a 5/8" hole where I want the pin to be, cut out the bait and get it shaped and sanded down to size, and then once it is finished, cut through both of the sides at the center of the hole to seperate the the joints.
Posted 21 August 2008 - 01:40 PM
Incredible looking baits. I too have been thinking about trying the 3:16 hinge system with wood, just haven't gotten around to it yet. It is by far the best looking hinge for swimbaits. I have a couple of questions. Did you use a dowel for the actual hinge? Can we see a video of the bass?
Posted 21 August 2008 - 02:20 PM
Thanks bdhaeh. The hinges are made from a dowel, but I'm not sure what kind of wood it is. One word of caution though on this set up...especially on the smaller baits. On the bass bait, I was able to pull the tail section apart during a stress test (I used Devcon 5min), but I just reglued it since the tail section should not have much stress on it since there is no hook hanger on it. The only think that worries me is it may hit the water hard and just right and break it loose again. The problem, if you look is obvious. The part that seperated was the top hinge (could have just as easily been the bottom). If you look, there is not much glue surface there due to the profile of the bait. If you will go back and look at the pic of the bait that has not been painted, I reversed the hinge on the tail. In other words the top and bottom hinges are glued to the midsection and the middle one is glued to the tail. By doing this, I was able to get more glue surface on the top and bottom without sacrificing the glue surface of the middle one. I hope that makes sense. Oh, and by the way I don't have a video of the bait...wish I did.
Posted 21 August 2008 - 02:54 PM
The problem is that you're glueing to end grain on the lure itself. End grain is usually closed, so there's no way for a good mechanical penetration. But the hinge method is too nice to give up on. And the dowel stock is probably birch, since that's what most lumber yards stock.
One thing you might do is some oval sst wires, like an elongated C, that would embed in epoxy in the lure body, and in the face of the hinge. It's a little more work but it would provide a good penetration into the lure body, instead of just a face glueing situation. I think it would be relatively simple to embed them into the hinge first, making sure there is not overflow onto the round hinge face. After it sets, sand again, and put the epoxy on the lure body, filling the holes where the sst wires will seat. Then put it together, tape it, and clean the excess with alcohol. I think it might be too hard to get it right if you try to do it all at once.
Edited by mark poulson, 21 August 2008 - 02:56 PM.
Posted 21 August 2008 - 03:42 PM
Hey Mark, what if you joined the two pieces with twisted wires? Drill holes in the dowel, epoxy in two twisted sst wires, when set drill matching holes in the body section and glue dowel in? Sounds like it would work to me, but what do I know?
Posted 21 August 2008 - 04:12 PM
One thing I have considered trying is cutting a groove around the hinge and wrapping a sst wire around it set in the groove, and then on the backside twist the wire together like a hanger. Then, just drill a hole in the body where the glue surface is and glue it all up. Ofcourse, for asthetic reasons, a guy would probably want to fill in the groove with epoxy or something else, and sand smooth so there is no evidence of the wire. That is what is keeping me from doing it...seems kinda labor intensive. I have really been avoiding doing this anyway if possible, because it is so nice not having to deal with the problem of having the hangars and the hinges crossing paths inside the bait. So far though, I haven't had much luck pulling the hinges apart on the larger sections. I haven't pulled with quite all my might, but I think I have pulled on them much harder than any bass is going to. The only way to know though is to just go and fish'em and see what happens.
Posted 22 August 2008 - 09:20 AM
TJ, I want to thank you for this thread, and your ideas on hinges. Last night I modified one of my wooden baits that I had not finished. It was already shaped for the hook-eye/pin hinge, so I just used my drum sander to shape the joints for a 5/8 dowel, measured the distance, cut dowel, then cut into three pcs., glued them in, voial, had the best performing hinges I have ever had. Didn't look nearly as good as yours, but with practice who knows. Many thanks for your insight and pics.
Posted 22 August 2008 - 12:58 PM
I don't see why it wouldn't. Twist wires hold for hinges and hook hangers, so they should work for this, too.
All we're trying to get is a "steel reinforced" glue joint, so we get the benefits of both the rigid glue and the flexible sst wire.
Kind of like steel reinforced concrete, where the concrete is strong in compression, and the steel is strong in tension, and the two work together to make a material that has both characteristics.
Another thing that might work is cutting vertical grooves in the curved face of the lure body before the hinge is glued in, so there is some kind of a mechanical connection into the body of the lure.
But I think some kind of sst wired reinforcing is important.
The idea of cutting a small groove around the hinge cylinder, and then looping sst wire around in the groove, twisting the tag ends and cutting them off with enough left for good penetration into the lure body "dowel holes" is probably the best idea so far, since it answers all the concerns in the most simple way, as long as it's not too hard to hide the wire for cosmetics. Although that might not be an issue if it's done neatly. You could probably use a tubing cutter to score the cylinder deeply enough to make the wire flush.
Edited by mark poulson, 22 August 2008 - 01:04 PM.
Posted 22 August 2008 - 04:35 PM
@ mark poulson
Hi , Mark , a mechanical bond in addition of the glue bond would certainly enhance stability of the hinges , that's for sure:yes: .
I think , just drilling one(or even two) holes centered horizontally through the round dowel portions and into the curved face would be the easiest way to do:? .
When glueing all together , a (or two) round pin of wood is placed through this hole , potruding a little and thoroughly bonded with glue as well(a snug dry fit is essential) .
The small vertical hinge pin bore could lead trough this wood pin as well , shouldn't be a problem , since everything is glued well .
The wood pin portion potruding over the round dowels circumference can be easily sanded flush after curing for a neat look and to insure proper function of hinge .
I guess , such a wood pin and glue bond is very often used on furniture parts .
greetz , Dieter
Posted 22 August 2008 - 05:04 PM
You made me laugh at myself. I'm a carpenter, I worked with dowels at lot years ago, I have a couple of doweling jigs in my garage and a bag full of wood dowels, and I never thought of using wood dowels for this, which would make perfect sense.
Talk about, "Can't see the forest for the trees".
Wood dowel glued into wood makes the most sense of all!
That joint would probably outlast the fisherman.
Posted 22 August 2008 - 05:04 PM
Deimai, I think you may be on to something. I have thought about how in the world I could attach a "post" to the hinge and drill a corresponding hole for it to fit in to the body but for some reason all I have considered was metal. Their is no reason why it can't be done with a small dowel instead. Just drill a hole in the hinge for the dowel to be glued in...if it covers the hinge pin hole, just redrill the hole and bore through the dowel...simple. The only problem I can see with this, would be for the smaller hinges on the tail...there is just not much room. I think I am going to have do a little more creative thinking on this. Thanks again.
Posted 22 August 2008 - 05:05 PM
Mark exactly my thoughts. We must have been typing at the same time.
Posted 22 August 2008 - 05:33 PM
The beauty of using wood dowel pins is that you can glue the hinge sections in place, and then drill right through the hinge cylinder into the lure, so everything lines up perfectly. Just be sure to relieve the dowel pin enough, either by sanding it flat on several faces, or sanding it slightly smaller where it enters the lure body, so you don't have it so tight that it won't go in, and won't make a glue starved joint. Myself, I'd sand three flats on the dowel, make the hole a little sloppy, and then rotate the dowel in the hole after I'd put it in. You have to apply glue to both the dowel and in the hole, so there is no dry area, and the dowel should force the excess glue back out along the flats you've sanded onto the length of the dowels. If you don't have some kind of a relief or play, like the grooves in store bought dowels, the pressure of the trapped glue, hydraulic pressure, will split the lure body, sure as shootin', or it will just freeze part way in and you'll have to drill it out and start all over.
Posted 23 August 2008 - 02:28 AM
@ mark poulson
Hi , Mark , we have the same term about "forest and trees" in German language as well:yes: .
Sometimes you're hooked up onto something so much , that you won't consider about different , maybe easier solutions , that's normal:huh: .
Between 79' and '82 I have gone through an apprenticeship as a toolmaker , after I have worked for 10 years on special grinding machines to furnish single assembly parts(did a lot for the German "Lufthansa" , "Boeing" aircraft engine maintainance devices , for example) , so we always had to think of different solutions to furnish those parts to attain requested accuracy .
Now I am precision grinding hobs , which is rather more a series production with repeative working processes , but since our customers request new designs and shapes from time to time , I frequently have to think about solutions as well how to fix those into my machines there for working on them .
I guess , even if having only small space at the rear section , a very thin wood dowel pin would do , it could only be a thin(approx. 3 mm)barbecue stick of bamboo(to poke pieces of meat and onions on ) , you might even drill the hinge pin bore through it , the glue would still bond it almost halfway into the round hinge dowel .
In every case you would attain more "glueing" surface , thus more stability .
Greetz , Dieter
Posted 23 August 2008 - 02:42 AM
Borderbasser - I just got onto this thread, very fine work on those lures/hinges, great lateral thinking with the dowel and pin. pete
Posted 23 August 2008 - 12:28 PM
How would you prevent the dowel from wearing the finish down and swelling. Which would bind the rotation.
Posted 23 August 2008 - 01:12 PM
Maybe, the perfect dowel would be a synthetic dowel; not wood. Dowel pins made from high-strength synthetic materials such as PVC, Nylon, Extren & phenolics are on the market and most if not all can be worked with wood tools.