Jump to content
New to lure making
43 replies to this topic
Posted 10 September 2008 - 03:13 PM
Obviously you're on the right path and already hooked into lurecarving , won't let you go anymore:nuhuh: !
Nice blanks you got there !
The problem about glueing in lead sheet together with the wireharness is , that you cannot accurately determine about the weight required for possible best action and/or balance of lure .
You are forced to estimate for the start , lateron , when making more cranks of one size and shape , you already would have an idea about how much weight needed and on which location .
It is also of advantage to keep records about it(To my shame I must say , that I don't do , only have my sketches . I just don't make too many lures of one kind , I like experimenting with always new shapes) .
Talked about the best weight location in a previous post , and if I look at your blanks shape , it should work out like this .
If your lead sheet weight should later turn out to be not enough , you could always drill some small holes left and right of the slot to glue in some more lead shot .
Surely I can't determine about your wood's density , but from a distance I'd say , that your lures might require at least 1/3 ounce of belly weight , maybe even 1/2 or slightly more . They are reasonably large .
But this is just a guess from afar , the more lures you make , the more you would get a feel for estimating the weight , but trial should always be paramount:yes: !
Keep on carvin' , Dieter
Posted 11 September 2008 - 12:59 AM
The pictures of the blanks you posted are excellent as a picture says a thousand words. If this is the size of lure you are talking about they are in the size range that I make (Jerkbaits). I would have thought a bait that size would not be a bait that would be used for bass, maybe I am wrong I do not know anything about bass fishing but I would have thought a 3" to 4" would be the kind of size. You would be able to put a screw eye into those with upmost confidence as from your post beech is used among others. I have started through wiring not because of lack of confidence in screweyes. Have a look at Lurebuilding101 for templates and lead positions just for ideas.
What size of hole would you drill for your twisted wire eyes ? at a guess I would think a hole very slightly larger than the overall diameter of the wire so as it slips in nice but does not wobble about in the hole, is this about right ??
Posted 11 September 2008 - 01:50 AM
Since this eye is made of SSt welding wire dia. 1,0mm , it would have a diameter of 3,0 mm at its shank .
I placed these into the holes by twisting them in , not pushing , so in softer woods the hole could be maybe 2,6 to 2,8 mm , since these woods could "squeeze" a bit under tension , in hardwoods the holes must be 2,9 or even 3,0 mm , but in every case I would go as tight as possible with the eye's bore .
The hole affair stands and falls with the quality of the glue bond , so I thoroughly fill up the hole with glue , by slowly twisting the eye in the liquid glue "climbs" into the gaps of the wire coils .
I haven't yet tried a slightly larger hole , like you described , but I am convinced , that a hole diameter , in which you can just push in the shank snugly , would be OK as well .
The twisting-in of the eye is rather more important for perfect glue flow and coverage than for physical stability of the bond , this stability is achieved by the glue for the most part , anyway .
PS : I wrap these eyes around a nail fixed vertically on one edge of a vise , first make an "U"-bend , then shape the eye around the nail , hold one tag end(shank) in your guide hand and twist the first half coil under the eye by hand around the shank end to attain a first loose closure of eye .
Then firmly grab the coil end with pliers and wind around the shank in possibly even coils , leaving a gap of approx. wire diameter inbetween each coil , apparently a kind of thread evolves .
With each winding you have to change grip on your pliers .
The shank of above pictured eye is 20 mm long , but you could also go longer , but the longer your shank gets , the more finacky the winding of the coil becomes .
After completing , I cut the two wire ends off with gate cutters , the coiled end would always potrude a bit over the shank diameter , so you need to press it somehow tightly against the shank , but I have a small grinding wheel in my workshop(a sanding disc works as well) , so I just grind off the potruding piece .
All in all it's not that difficult , once you get the hang of it .
Well , long text about a little thing , hope its understandable:) !
greetz , Dieter
Posted 11 September 2008 - 02:10 AM
I also know nowt about Bass fishing! I think I read that all Bass will take a big lure but only small Bass will take a small lure in Mike Ladles diary. My blanks are 6 inches long and as you can see fairly deep (about the size of a small herring or mackerel) and I am now thinking these blanks will need quite a lot of lead to balance them. I assume you need to add lead to the belly until the lure sits upright???
I have plenty of suitable wood and can easily make more blanks so as Diemai mentioned trial & error is the only way forward.
I am going down to Whitby today and hope to pick up a book at the library about Bass fishing and see if I can purchase any supplies for lure making.
Posted 11 September 2008 - 02:23 AM
You are right to assume adding sufficient weight to let lure swim upright . In addition the weight must also balance the wobble of the lure .
It might happen on first trial , that a lure swims upright at rest , but when retrieving it , it would swim on its side , in this case still more weight is needed (or the lip has to be shaved) .
Round ,-or sligthly oval bodied lures are a bit easier to handle , they most likely already provide a certain kind of swimming action , a weight most likely improves that already given action .
High-bodied cranks like yours are bit more difficult , in my opinion , since they must at first be balanced to swim upright and ALSO balanced for action .
But you will certainly achieve this as well !
Good success in finding , what you need , Dieter
Edited by diemai, 11 September 2008 - 02:24 AM.
Posted 11 September 2008 - 12:02 PM
Diemai is dead right, high bodied lures can be a nightmare to balance. I have found an easy solution to that problem, I dont make em anymore
Posted 11 September 2008 - 03:25 PM
OK. I have given this weighting problem some thought. There are 2 considerations in my estimation. 1 How much weight. and 2 Where to put it.
I decided to establish how much weight would provide negative buoyancy as follows:
I screwed an eye into the end of a lure. Filled a deep bucket with water. (Tap water as had no sea water to hand, will give slightly different results). Hung various items on the eye and lowered into the water. Ended up with a piece of wire hanging from the lure and sliding a selection of washers onto the wire until desired weight achieved.
Can now weigh the bunch of washers & the wire which in fact weighed one and a half ounces exactly. So in sea water this lure would float (just) providing the eyes, wire, hooks & lead weighs no more than one and a half ounces. I now have to decide on a % of one and a half ounces on a trial & error basis and I thought of 66% for starters. So the lead & hooks etc need to weigh one ounce.
As I will be using woods of different densities and producing different size & shape lures by squint of eye and skeg of gob I thought I would try to come up with a formula to help with this weight problem.
Photos as further explanation:
Posted 12 September 2008 - 01:41 AM
Quite a unique way of determing about the weighting , I'd say:yes: .
I wonder , why you use different materials for it just to weight them up against lead later on your scales:? ?
I use lead straight .
I'd cut rectangular stripes of roofing lead sheet , 15 mm to 20 mm high , about 120 mm to 180 mm in length , "U"-bend them and hang them onto the belly hook of the temporary readily rigged lure blank .
In the water bucket I can now test the sink rate , I would shorten that stripe until desired sink rate or floatation is accomplished .
Now I use that stripe as a template to cut out a second one of same size(just in case , I'd mess up the first one by false separating , when two weights are needed fore and aft , most likely on glider jerbaits) .
Now I'd roll up that stripe as tight as possible , even comprime it by slight hammer beats on a steel surface , constantly rolling it to keep it round .
Now I tape that lead roll onto the blanks belly with some plastic tape(cable insulation tape) , at a location , that I believe to be best .
A test run in my bath tub shows the results in terms of lure action , I can always fool around with different locations , until I am satisfied .
After I'd hang the blank to dry , remove harware and mark weight location with a felt pen .
In my drill press I'd then drill a hole of approbiate size and glue in the lead roll with two-component glue , as close as possible to belly outline .
You only have to consider a little fraction less buoyancy on the finished lure later due to drilling out buoyant material from the blank and various paint coats to be applied .
For instance , if you want your lure to slow sink , the blank's back should just stick out very slightly of the water whilst the waterbucket testing , so it would sink later , also put a larger paperclip or wire piece on the toweye to resemble the steel leader(if intended to use later for fishing) .
You could still do a little fine-trimming with thicker wired hooks , but that is very subtle:yes: .
It is essential to apply one or two simple clearcoats prior to putting the blank in water , so it won't soak water , at first this could render your tests inaccurate or even do damage on the lure , certainly it would slow down the proceeding of the lure , since it would take days to dry it thoroughly prior to painting .
I use acrylic clear paint for this , prior to priming the lure later , I'd just buff it a bit for good adhesion of following paint coats .
Sometimes certain lure shapes won't accomodate the size of a required weight hole , in this case I also furnish elongated slots on my hobby routing machine , and shape the lead roll not round but somehow cubic .
On smaller lures I don't use lead sheet , but small round in-line sinkers or leadshot , I'd rig these on a looped piece of mono line to hang them onto the belly hook for testing sink rate , after I procced same way as described above .
good success , Dieter
Posted 12 September 2008 - 02:14 AM
Thanks for your further advice. Makes a lot of sense! Will post again as soon as I have anything new to report.
Posted 18 September 2008 - 12:52 AM
Just to let you know I am still here.
A bit more progress although there are not many shops round here and I am having difficulty obtaining supplies.
3 photos showing lure hopefully taking shape:
You will note the lead ready to glue into the holes in the belly.
Posted 18 September 2008 - 01:15 AM
Great to see your first ones evolving:yes: !
Never thought about placing the weightholes under an angle below the internal harrness , but I guess , you did not have any other chance !
When making your next ones , you will already know about having done the working process easier !
I don't know , which lure action is neccessary for yor target species "seabass" , but it seems to me , that the diving bill of your lure is rather small for its size , it would only provide a very moderate wiggle to your crankbait .
Or it is by intention ?
For my needs for pike-fishing , I would have made the lip at least 1/3 longer(rather a bit more) and have it potrude sideward over fattest part of body for approx . 1/10" either side .
This way the lure achieves stronger moves , yet dives deeper .
Greetz , Dieter
Posted 18 September 2008 - 09:16 AM
Diemai. Thanks for further advice/encouragement.
Nothing I have done is by intention. I have no idea how the lure needs to react to catch fish and furthermore do not understand what to do to the lures during manufacture to give them different characteristics. All your advice is being noted!
I think you realised I drilled my holes offset so as not to drill through the wire.
At the moment I have no option but to continue with the small lip as removing/replacing it might be difficult but if at a later stage I find the lure is not performing I will try to replace it then. All part of the learning curve.
Posted 18 September 2008 - 10:27 AM
I have always said as far as I am concerned the 'not knowing' is part of the fun of luremaking, I have not made one single lure 'knowing' how it will behave and the only way of finding if they catch fish is to use em !! Nice to see your progress
Posted 20 September 2008 - 03:24 PM
I have to apologize for not having gone into deeper details about describing about the lip size in my previous post .
When talking about the width of the lip potruding max. 1/10" over the greatest with of lurebody , I simply assumed and took for granted , that you would know about most common lip SHAPES:huh: !
Most likely the lips of such a crankbait style narrow towards their base(the end glued into body) , the outer end is wider and most likely furnished halfround , straight or pointed .
I am really sorry for that lack of explanation .
I think , that your lure , as it it is now , might wobble too strong or even overturn.
Maybe even it won't wobble at all , but dive down straight .
The lip has got a too large surface and insufficient shape now in my opinion , to find out better , you need to test your lure in a bath tub or small pond .
In case , one of the issues above should occur , it would be quite easy to shave the lip a bit , first taper it towards its base equally on either side , test for action and , if not satisfied , round off the outer end , possibly shorten it a bit as well .
You don't have to remove lip again for this operation , you may do the coarse shaping carefully on a sanding disc or grinding wheel , after fix the lip only in a vise(take care not to accidentally hit or bend the body , lip might break of or get damaged) , a little filing takes care of the rest . Been there , done that !
But first test:yay: !!!!!!!
On your next lures you might as well place the lip just a fraction further towards tail and locate line tie a bit lower , maybe even just under the chin .
Every little thing altered will cause differences in lure action and behaviour .
I have enclosed some book pictures on lip shapes . Thoug these lips shown there are deep diving lips with the line ties attached right onto them , they still indicate , how a lip should be shaped , it is obvious , that all are somewhat narrower at their base .
Diving lips on your style of shallower diving lures are usually smaller than on deep divers , also the toweye is not placed straight on them , but somewhere at the nose of lure .
Again , I am sorry about this little misunderstanding , that may cause you a little extra work , but as you also said , "all part of the learning curve" .
Remember to always test after every change:yes: , Dieter
Posted 20 September 2008 - 03:56 PM
I only make wake baits and shallow running cranks with bills, so I'm no expert, by any means.
But I have picked up a few bits of knowledge concerning bills on crankbaits.
The depth the crank will dive to is greatly affected by the angle of the bill. The closer to 90 degrees from the long axis of the crank, the more shallow the crank will run.
The angle you've chosen for your crank is, generally speaking, for a shallow running crankbait, and really doesn't need a great deal of length. For wake baits and shallow cranks, short, wide bills work better.
I've found that having a bill that long is only helpful for deep diving cranks, and, in that case, the angle of the bill would need to be much more parallel to the long axis of the lure (pointing more directly toward the angler as he pulls it).
At this point, after you've tested the lure, if you find it doesn't run well, that is it rolls to one side when your retrieve it a decent speed, you will probably do well to begin shortening the bill, in 1/8" increments, and retesting it, until it swims without rolling over.
For a shallow running crank, the bill is really to initiate the swimming action by deflecting the water first to one side, and then the other, as the body behind the bill is hit by the passing water.
When I put a bill on a crank, I take a pair of sheetmetal cutters to the test pond with me, and trim and shape the bill with them, and toenail cutters, until it swims the way I want it to.
I use the translucent plastic dividers that come in plastic lure storage boxes, so they're soft enough to trim easily, but stiff enough to function for wake baits and shallow cranks in wood and brush. I don't think a bill made of that material would hold up to constant grinding on rocks that happens with med. and deep diving cranks (8'-20') fished as reaction baits, on rocky bottoms.
I don't worry too much if I make a bill too short in the testing phase.
Removing and replacing a bill is not that difficult. I use the same bandsaw I cut the slot with to remove the bill. Once I've passed the blade down one side, the bill will pry free easily, and putting in another is just a matter of filling the slot with epoxy, wedging the new bill in position using a wooden toothpick to hold it until the epoxy sets, and then cutting or breaking off the toothpick, sealing the end of the toothpick that's left with a dab of crazy glue, and then it's back to the test pond.
Time refining the bill is time well spent, because a poorly designed bill can ruin a lure. Once you've gotten it right for one lure, save that bill design with that lure design, so you can replicate it any time you want.
Posted 22 September 2008 - 03:01 AM
Thanks Diemai & Mark,
I am finding this fascinating. It is time I tested the 2 lures I am fiddling with at the moment to find out if they need adjusting or scrapping.
I am not concerned with how many failures I have along the way but hope I will learn from each one. The main problem I have at the moment is I live in a country area with not much industry and have not yet been able to find a supply of stainless steel wire except for a few bits picked up off the floor of someones workshop.
Will be posting pictures of my MK 3, 4, 5 versions etc in due course until I get one right!
Posted 22 September 2008 - 04:23 AM
I know your problem too well ! Though I live in a 18.000 citizens town I always have to go to Hamburg or other towns in 25 miles vicinity for my stuff .
For SSt wire check welding supplies , mailorder tackle ,- or component shops carry special luremaking wire(a fraction more rigid , I'd say) as well in a bigger choice , but yet more expensive .
Over here I can get spooled welding wire 0.8 mm dia , and 1.0 mm and 1.5 mm in rods of 1 metre length .
For the majority of lures the 1.0 mm dia. is OK , the thinner one only for smaller lures , the thicker one for lures of 1 foot+ and huge bucktail spinners .
greetz , Dieter
Posted 22 September 2008 - 06:11 AM
I was having the same supply problem, but finally found a store for both lead and the soft SS wire. The shop was a metal suppliers, selling stock bars of just about everything. 3" dia brass bar caught my eye. A stack of lead ingots, anything metal, they had it, including 8Kg roll of 0.8mm SS wire, of which I bought 3Kg. Won't need to shop for wire again for a few years!
Try looking for locking wire also, I think it is soft SS. Check out motor cycle repair shops. Locking wire is used a fair bit on bikes.
Good luck with the search, I feel your pain!
Posted 23 September 2008 - 12:37 AM
When speaking about difficulties that some may have in finding supplies, you could also consider that things are much worse for some. I simply could not find SS wire in my country. The only available SS wire here is welding wire which they sell in spools of 15 kg. That would be enough for my life multiplied by 3 or 4. So I got the wire from USA, Italy and Spain. A friend of mine went recently to Spain and he bought there for me a roll of 100 m (0.400 kg), 0.8 mm in diameter, for the shelf price of 18 euros. Quite expensive, isn't it? But it seems to be of a very good quality, and it is as hard as welding wire. This is the hardness I was looking for.