Snax

Swimbait joints revisited (Again!) lol

28 posts in this topic

What's up gang? I know we seem to discuss swimbait joints a lot here but here's what I have been doing and here's what I'm wanting to do...

My swimbaits are currently made using the standard two screw eyes in one section and then a hinge pin through them in the next section as seen in the attachment.

What I'm wanting to do is to get away from needing to cut out the slots in the sections and use the screw eye to screw eye method instead of hinge pins.

The thing that I'm trying to do is to make it so that I can get the sections close together so they will be the same as I have them now.

I'm experimenting with ways to be able to be able to have the eye screws pre linked together and then just be able to epoxy or somehow cement them into pre drilled holes in the opposing body section.

I can't just screw the eye screws into each section as once they get closer and closer, the body of the lure prevents me from getting the sections close enough. If I try and use open eye screws on one section I can't get into the space well enough to be able to squeeze them shut properly.

Basically then I'm curious about getting the strongest way of being able to insert one end of the eye screw into a pre drilled hole without worrying that it will pull out.

So far I've tested using marine epoxy putty in the hole but I was able to pull out the eye screw which actually was encased in wood! I'm using cedar again by the way as oak was prone to splitting I discovered the hard way.

I also tested a different epoxy called epoxy steel. This worked better but is there something perhaps any of you have tried that would solve my dilemma? Maybe an alternative to a screw eye for the part that I'm wanting to seal into the pre drilled holes?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

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Edited by Snax

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snax- I'm not quite sure what to suggest, but have you tried D2T, make a jig to hold the lure, then just fill the holes and rotate it until it's set!!!

As for the lure pictured, superb bit of work there, love your colours. pete

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@ Snax

Check http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/hardbaits/13713-swimbait-very-first-attempt-12.html , I have made a sketch with some wire coil hinges there , don't know , wether you have checked it before .

If you make the hinge section to be epoxied into a bore with a bent backward tag end ("U"-shaped) , you could secure it with a crosswise pin through the body and that "U"-bend .

If a pin should even still be neccessary:? ?

You could try to make a wire eye this way or even try to bend a long SSt screw eye this way , a short bend backward end would be enough .

Would be hard to do , but heating up the shank , where its going to be bend , might make it easier .

Heat to red dark red glow wit a soldering torch or welding burner prior to bending , but this renders the steel softer , question is , wether it would still hold up or break at the "U"-bend .

Just a brief idea , haven't done this before:? !

Greetz , diemai

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Always room for another hinge discussion.

How did you do the pull test? Did you use fishing line or tie it to a tree and pull with nylon rope. It sounds to me that you may have over tested the joint.

As long as the pull load exceeds the actual breaking strain of the line, then the test is a success, as the line will always break first. I only mention this because you stated that wood was stripped out with the fixing material.

A simple, more controlled test would be to suspend a 5 gal bucket from the lure and gradually add a known quantity of water. Measuring in litres works well, because 1 litre weighs 2.2 pounds.

This way, if it fails, you will know the exact load it took to break the joint and will be able to make a direct comparison with other fixing products or methods. If it takes all 5 gallons, you could leave it hanging for 24 hours and use it in your sales pitch.

I know I get technical sometimes, but this is a very simple test to perform, using stuff you probably have laying around the garage anyway.

I did a pull test using polyester resin. Not in wood, but a resin body. It took 24 pounds for 24 hours. It was the only bucket I had. But this should be more than strong enough for any bass lure.

Regarding the joint. I don't see how you are going to get away from cutting slots and still keep the segments close together, but the slot will look tidier, as it will be cut into both segments.

I am about to start a swimbait in the next week or two. I am going to use a nylon (or similar) thread as the joint, setting it into a slot, top and bottom. This method will allow me to get the segments very close without having to cut the large slots associated with the eye method.

True, an extra filling operation will have to be done, but the clean appearance should compensate. I don't think it is any more labor intensive anyway. It will be tested for strength, but I am not anticipating any problems. Other than the usual, keeping the top coat off the joint.

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Snax,

I ran into the same obstacles when I tried different hinges.

If the wood came out with the screw eye epoxy, then the glue is strong enough, but the wood isn't.

I don't use cedar, or redwood, for that reason.

I tried ovaling the hole in the wood to give it a bigger glue ball anchor, but, in the end, I found it too hard to align the eyes correctly in the epoxy.

That's why I went to the screw eye/hinge pin method. I can adjust the sst screw eyes on each hinge to get the spacing and joint movement I want, and then glue them in, one at a time, so I have the other one still set to use as a depth guage. And, in the event I misjudge one, I can still unscrew it and readjust it.

The screw eyes will unscrew if they're sst, but they won't pull out.

JR Hopkins had perfected a hinge system using kevlar threads. He uses polyurethane foam, laminated, and places the threads in the open halves before he glues them, but I don't know any more about it than that.

You might want to give him a call.

And I just saw the lure picture you posted.

I still hate you! :censored::lol::worship:

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Ha,ha,ha, you kill me Mark! :D

I'm going to give this another shot today using fiberglass resin in the holes. I figure it might add some structural integrity to the surrounding wood.

Vodkaman, thanks also for your great input! You are right in that I over tested the pull strength of the hinges but I need to be 100% confident that no amount of thrashing will cause a pull out. I'm selling my swimbaits for a considerable amount of money and don't want any failures at the joints which is always a weak spot in this type of bait.

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Have you tried the Minwax Wood Hardner for reinforcing the wood before you epoxy?

It is a penetrating resin that actually makes rotten wood stronger, so it should work for sound wood, too.

If I were making balsa or cedar/redwood lures, I'd try it.

Let me know if it works. I have stacks of redwood in storage next to my garage left over from jobs.

I use it for a sealer on some of my wood baits, mostly pine and poplar, and it works great.

It doesn't have the body of their polyacrylic, so you still have to put on another product as a pre-paint sanding coat.

Bu I like that it is watery and penetrates. I apply it with a Q tip, and it runs all the way through my hinge pin holes, so I don't have to worry about water intrusion there.

I'm confident that any lure I make and treat with it will be waterproof, no matter what.

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Thanks for the idea about the wood hardener Mark. I'll have to give it a shot if the fiberglass resin doesn't pan out.

I just started a new thread about having baits molded for me. In it I mention fiberglass resin. Has anyone here ever molded a lure from it or in conjunction with fiberglass itself? I just found something online about a guy who made tuna lures from fiberglass.

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I tend to use the screw eyes as standard but what i have thought is twisting my own out of ss wire and glueing them in which should enable you to set the sections closer together

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Thanks for the tip on twisting my own from wire, I'll give that a shot.

I think if I strengthen the wood first as Mark suggested and then use a twisted wire instead of a screw eye it might do the trick.

I also remembered that the industrial hot glue I have at home is incredibly strong and will likely have no trouble holding in the wire as long as the surrounding wood is beefed up first.

I'll do some testing here shortly and post my results. Wish me luck!

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The twisted wire is a great idea. I got the idea from BobP here on TU. Bob has been using this method for a long time. After you twist the wires together, glue them into one section and wait for the glue to cure and then do the other side. Have used it and it does work quite well.

Here reciently I have used an idea that borderbasser posted here on his thread "wod to wood glue". He has come up with a method that is a bit more time consuming ( until you do a few ) but has made joint making easier and more dependable for me. It brings the sections as close together as you can get.

David

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twisting your own wire works well but to get perfect shape you are going to desire will be hard because you will have to use a bigger guage wire for the monsters you are fishing for! I used to use that method and it does work well but i have gone away from it because its too hard to clean the joint out. If you do use that method i would paint and top coat then hinge together other wise you will never get the D2T or whatever topcoat u use out as the join is too tight. Recently i have started using SS cotter pins and drilling a round yes round hole for the hinge pin. you cant even tell its there when assembled. And when put in with Devcon 5 min epoxy i cannot ge it to fail under reasonable conditions. I will post a pic in a bit.

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Very interesting idea! What my ultimate goal is, is to be able to build and clear coat each section and then be able to assemble it at the very end with perfectly fitting joints. That's the reason I'm hoping to be able to simply insert either a screw eye or twisted wire into a pre drilled hole and then seal it in with epoxy or fiberglass resin etc.

I do have to say though that your idea looks very good and clean. I need the joints to be very very strong.

Edited by Snax

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SS twisted wire is definatley the strongest method i have used but it was a pain to get perfect loops and pairs that matched up with the guage wire i was using. If you assemble it afterwards that is the key too. Just predill the holes and coutner sink them to whatever Tightness/gap is desired then paint topcaot and glue em in. When you twist the wire cut the pieces atlest 4 inches long so u have a nice long shank to work with. Good luck and like mark p said i hate you too!!! :worship:

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Good luck and like mark p said i hate you too!!! :worship:

Ha,ha,ha! You guys are too kind! :lol:

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I tend to use the screw eyes as standard but what i have thought is twisting my own out of ss wire and glueing them in which should enable you to set the sections closer together

I started with twist wires, but I found that I was making my joints too tight, and the wires had no adjustment, other than squeezing them to elongate the loop.

Tight joints, while esthetically pleasing, really hamper swimming action.

That's why I settled on screw eyes, which I can adjust to get the joint and swimming action the way I want before gluing them in.

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ok. I did some testing using twisted wire held into a hole using industrial hot glue on one body section and the other section using the good old eye screw glued in place with expanding polyurethane glue.

Here's the results of my stress test...

The screw eye ended up bending open before the side with the twisted wire could even budge. I used every bit of my strength to pull open the eye screw side so i have no fear about a fish doing the same.

In real life i'll be using two screw eyes per section and two twisted wires so this will never fail before the line or hooks would straighten etc.

This is great news for me and will save a lot of extra cutting of slots, lining up the pin holes etc not to mention it will eliminate all those edges where the finish may be weaker. Thanks to those who contributed to my threads and for the great input.

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Mark,

You must have replied as I was typing my last post.

you make a good point about getting the right distance between the body sections. I found it was easy to get just the right spacing by filling the hole with hot glue and then pushing the twisted wire in until it was perfect. If you first put a piece of tape across the section that is pre drilled before filling the hole with the hot glue, hopefully you'll be able to remove any glue that gets forced out while inserting the wire.

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Snax,

Good call on the hot glue as a filler/adhesive for the wire and eye screw holes. I am moding my prototype #3 to use ss thru wire. I am basically:

1) create a wire template (wood and nails) to pre-wrap a complete segment of wire that would pass through all segments of a swim bait. Interlock the wire at segment lengths.

2) this allows pre drilling and pre coating etc...just drill the thru hole for the wire and insert with wire and fill with epoxy or hot glue.

3) I am also using a swivel for the hook hangers. The wire simply passes through the swivel and then add a split ring.

This method is commonly used for "plug" type lures. Lots of detailed discussion at striped-bass dot com site.

This requires a little more pre planning, but once it is done right, it SHOULD work well. I like the ease of the eye screws, but I like the idea of not having to cut the slots for the double eye screws in each segment. Now to get this final prototype connected and tested.

What is the name of the router bit that can be used to route out the "V" notch in the back of each swim bait segment? Is there a special name for that bit?

Thanks,

slingToad

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The bit for notching I use is a double flute groove bit. There are a few angle options available. I think mine is a 90 degree but I've forgotten exactly.

I use a router table with a fence fence to guide the piece over top of the router bit. I set up the fence so that as I slide the lure on it's end to be routed, the bit passes exactly down the center of the lure body making a perfect notch in one pass.

I use a different bit to rout the opposite end of the body section that will fit into the notch a little once assembled. It's a 45 degree chamfering bit.

With this step I hold the section in a clamp and I make sure that the flat side of the lure is flush against the router table when flipping it over to do the other side. This is done in two steps.

Hope this helps.

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Snax,

Thanks for the explanation and the names of the bits.

That is exactly what I would like to do. Should make my build process quicker, more accurate and safer.

Thanks,

slingToad

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My pleasure Toad.

Be very cautious when routing and especially when routing small pieces. Definitely use a clamp to hold the pieces when using your chamfering bit. Even with a clamp I had a lure section fly up and crack me on the bridge of my nose.

I use a clamp with plastic grips that hold the work piece which I strongly suggest using. You don't want anything metal to accidentally contact the router bit while it's spinning. Good luck and safe woodworking.

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I have been wanting to post this for some time now and this seems to be the right place. I have been cutting some of my lures out from a scrap of PVC bord brick molding. I have had the problem of my top coat cracking because the wood has not been seeled up well. Sence the PVC is a plastic, I thought that this would eliminate the water seaping in to the wood. It has worked so far. O.K. now for the joints. I had the idea of using wire leaders. The successful one was using a Titanium 7 strand leader material. I made sort of a mini leader with leader sleves and a loop on each end. Drilled the holes on each end of the sections of my swim bait, top and bottom. Placed them on the top of my swim bait to estimate (eyeball with a pen mark) a place to drill a small 1/16 hole for a pin made of stainless steel wire. Put the leaders in the holes in the ends of the bait, then placed the pins in through the top. With a much prayer, it worked. I can pull and pull and the thing does not budge. I used no epoxy, glue, or anything. The PVC sands, cuts, and shapes nicely. It does leave a bit of a "sandy" feeling to the unpainted bait. I have tested it many times, and it still works great. I have not caught any toothy monsters, however bass seem to like it as well. No problems yet. The Titanium wire is very stiff. The bait has a tight swim, yet still looks natrual. This is a 7in., 3oz swimbait, on a smaller trial, the wire was too stiff and I did not like it. Anyway, that is my experiment with swimbait joints.

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