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Bouncing an idea off you guys
21 replies to this topic
Posted 08 November 2008 - 11:51 AM
Well strive to make a piece of wood look like a fish, then we try to fish it looking like a dying or weaker fish in the hope that a big hungry fish takes it. Has any one tried to make a lure or even paint one up to look like a distressed bait fish. Example of what i'm meaning is to paint the lure sideways, eyes on top and bottom of the lure and the pattern on the sides.
Posted 08 November 2008 - 12:20 PM
From my experience in having bass and pike in aquariums. When they were hungry and I dumped the feeders in they ate the first available and kept gorging untill they could not fit any more in their belly but still had them sticking out of their mouth. Ever catch a fish with bait still sticking out of their throat?
But when they were not hungry and had plenty of feeders in the tank, The last feeders left were the wounded or dying ones...
I don't think fish eat the wounded bait first in a lake. I think they are oportunistic feeders since they don't have scheduled meals like we all do.
I think a natural looking bait gets bit because thats what they eat every day from fry to adult sizes.
The key is throwing the bait where the fish live.
Posted 08 November 2008 - 12:48 PM
There was a thread recently on a flounder bait that you might check. There have been a few commercial baits designed to lay on their sides but I can't remember any of them becomming popular. One somewhat similar mod I've used is to tail weight a suspending jerkbait so it swims upright but slowly sinks backward when paused, like a dying shad. The guy who originated the mod based it on observed bass behavior in a large tank. I've modified several Pro Rogues that way and they are killer baits in winter when shad die-offs are common.
Posted 08 November 2008 - 03:02 PM
I've been playing around with poppers with a pattern just like you described (eyes on top and bottom, darker color on one side, lighter on the other, stripes, lateral line, etc on the top and bottom). I haven't been happy with what I've done so far, but I think it will work out pretty well.
Posted 08 November 2008 - 03:19 PM
I have once crudely painted a "natural shad" colored(white belly/silver flanks/dark back) , homemade small jerkbait with some red/orange/white irregular stripes on its flanks .
These are to resemble infected bite wounds , like caused by predatory fish or also birds .
Over here in Germany anglers are quite convinced about our local pike being a kind of "water health supervisor" , that would eliminate every sick or injured fish or even small animal in its habitat .
Of course the action of such patterned lures should also be "not healthy" !
A few pale yellow/white flecks on a natural color design resembling a fungus infection should do the trick as well .
I haven't caught on that lure yet , maybe its darting action does not match the injured appearance , really should paint a couple of different lure models that way:? !
greetz , diemai
Posted 08 November 2008 - 03:55 PM
I ask myself, how many wounded fish are out there in a population. The percentage at any one time must be very low. If the agressor is waiting for an injured fish, he/she may have a long wait.
I deduce that the wounded fish theory is a myth. It reminds me of an old joke. Presented with a lobster with one claw missing, the diner requested the winner for his meal. I think 21xdc has it right, it is purely an opportunistic thing.
The fact is that anything we make is not going to immitate a healthy fish with any accuracy, that is just about impossible. I think of it as offering a keystone cop video up for a tiger. Not totally convincing, but close enough.
I think it is best to aim for the reality of a healthy fish. Just one of those humble opinions.
Posted 08 November 2008 - 04:08 PM
Dave....you're only partially right there I think. I definitely find it very hard to believe, actually impossible that the fish are waiting for injured fish to eat. They'll eat what they can, when they can. BUT.......Predatory fish are just that, predators. They will absolutely be more likely to eat an injured baitfish than a healthy one. Just like big cats, wolves, or any other predatory animal, they're going to eat the one that looks easiest to eat first.
Now with that in mind, to answer the OP, I have a lure in mind to imitate this.....kind of. It's actually a bait painted with a regular pattern, but the key is the weighting of it so it floats on its side with the head down in the water. Float on top then dive a few inches on a short pull, then float back to the top. I think it'll be a fish catcher.....but you don't know until you try it really.
Posted 08 November 2008 - 04:41 PM
Off course it won't be like predatory fish exclusively feed on injured prey , its exactly like clamboni stated , injuries mean easy forage , so maybe resemblances of injuries or unhealthy behaviour could trigger one or another extra strike .
A similar issue , that I read about , is to work your lure slightly below or beside a school of predators prey fish , it would be more likely get hit than the real fish swimming close together , provided , that the lure design and action is similar to those schooling up minnows .
Another rule of thumb over here is to take larger baits as the water gets colder in later fall , because the pike would not waste their energy for a 4" minnow , oughta tie on at least something 8"+ to raise their interest !
In warm water in summer that basic rule goes vice versa , since there are so many small minnows around , predators are exclusively feeding on them , so big lures would be ignored .
But since fish can't talk to us yet , all this must remain uncertain:huh: !
greetz , diemai
Posted 08 November 2008 - 06:44 PM
Big fish like easy meals... They won't exert alot of energy for a small meal and a tough chase. The pay off is not worth it. Therefore the wounded is not the best way to get bit. The slower realistic presentation is where it is at. Just like a big jig is known for cathing big bass. Easy meal for less effort. Not because it looks injured.
PS... I am a tournament bass fisherman of 28 years with a good history of success. Trying to be somewhat humble.. LOL
Edited by 21xdc, 08 November 2008 - 06:48 PM.
Posted 08 November 2008 - 08:04 PM
21xdc, I do agree with you mostly. I am a firm believer that a bass, especialy larger bass live by the saying "most amount of calories consumed for least amount spent". However, how do you figure that a wounded or dissoriented bait fish does not provide an easy of a meal as a healthy vibrant baitfish? I also believe that bass are very opportunistic. What that says to me though, is that when a bass is actively feeding, they will feed on just about anything healthy or not. However, almost by the near definition of the word "opportunistic", a bass may be more likely feed on a injured or dissoriented fish when they are not actively feeding whenever the "opportunity" presents itself. Just my .2 cents.
Posted 08 November 2008 - 08:50 PM
OK... Bass will eat crayfish,minnows,mice,frogs,birds,dragon flies,snakes,worms,bluegill,perch,baby bass, etc...
Yet they will eat a "Blue glitter brush hog" that looks like nothing ever!
They will eat anything, even a shoelace with a hook.
They will eat everything that bass pro shops sell, plus shoelaces..
Some try too hard to just catch a fish... It's not that hard.
Ever notice that in a tornament that 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place with weights very close to eachother are always caught 3 different ways, in 3 different areas, 3 different depths, 3 different lures,3 different colors at 3 different times?
Just keeping it real guys.. Something to think about.
Posted 08 November 2008 - 10:06 PM
I designed and sell a bait that I dubbed the Side Swipe which is as you described. It floats at rest on its side and it weighted to run that way when jerked like a Bobbie Bait or Suick.
Here's a look at what I'm talking about...
Posted 08 November 2008 - 10:49 PM
Ma' I had to chime in on dis Hard baits thread LOL:lol:
All my life I have heard about the injured bait syndrome. I used to give it some credit, cause in nature much works like this. And I am sure at times it is very true.
Not to discredit anything said here, and as we know Bass aint smart like saltwater fish:teef: but fishing coastal waters here in Just South La. all my life I have seen many a wounded/sick finger mullets swimming on water surface. This is one of the main food sorces of Redfish, and SPeckled trout. With the numerous times I have seen these mullets slow surface swimming, not one time have I seen a fish come up to eat one. But yet, I have seen fish hit healthy mullets, and lively shrimps, pogies in schools etc. Have even seen the wounded pogies floating on surface after a brutal fish attack, not eaten.
So I must theorize dat my coastal fish like to eat live swiming creatures.
Now with all this said, can throw a wrench in the my own theory in saying, many people do not fish artificials, sinning as they do, but they still catch fish soakin dead bait on bottom. Go Figure
Edited by Kajan, 08 November 2008 - 10:51 PM.
Posted 09 November 2008 - 01:52 AM
WOW some great responses.
SNAX, great looking bait, any feedback on how it produces?
The more calories gained for less calories expended would be how a fish would think (if they do indeed think), as well as nearly all other animals (us included). I have read, over the years, that this is how they work.
I know when I have been trout fishing in the UK that when they are hitting the pin fry that you wait for a splash of an attack then cast a fly into the distrubance. The trout will then come and mop up the fry damaged, stunned in the initial attack. And with the your fly in there too, more often than not it gets taken.
I would have thought that this would be the same for all other fish.
Posted 09 November 2008 - 02:07 AM
21xdc, you're absolutely right.......but is an injured baitfish not an easier meal than one that's not injured? And on top of that, it looks different than all the rest. How many times have you caught fish that were feeding on a school of shad? There's a reason they picked your lure out of all those targets.
Kajan, I don't know how similar the Louisiana backwaters are to NJ ones, but you're right I never see stripers or bluefish eating injured baitfish that I can see during the day. That's because the only time I see stripers or blues feeding up top during the day is when it's a big school of bait.
We have both here, but in limited numbers and places. Do you see reds and trout feeding on baitfish that are in small groups at the surface during the day? 'm talking about groups of 5-6 fish together. I see this all the time here, both healthy and looking like they're having trouble, and there's never anything trying to eat them. But like you said, during the day you're more likely to get a big bass on a dead bunker on the bottom. Here, the only time during the day you'll see gamefish at the surface is when the bait is really thick.
This may sound dumb, but I think that the fish have a much harder time seeing bait near the surface when it's bright out. I look at the fish in my fishtank from a low angle with the lights on and I can barely see them at the surface. I think that's why you don't see the injured fish getting busted on, because the gamefish just aren't there feeding.
Posted 09 November 2008 - 06:54 AM
I have seen quite the opposite more often. You see a ton of fish feeding on the surface and you throw in and get nothing.
Having bass in aquariums for many years taught me alot more than guessing..
Edited by 21xdc, 09 November 2008 - 07:01 AM.
Posted 09 November 2008 - 03:39 PM
I am a New Jersy salt water guy..........the bait balls up and swims at the top of the water column on sunny days because the predators have a hard time seeing them that way. They need to hone in on a target. The predators will mostly target fish from the outside of the school. Fish that cant keep up or are injured will not be able to stay in the bait ball. This make sense to me based on the way I catch bluefish with live bunker. I will find a school of large bunker, snag one with a big weighted trebble hook. I then transfer him to a wire leader hook. I put one hook in his mouth and then I slip another leadered hook through his mout, out out of his gill, and hook him in the tail. I throw him back in crippled and bleeding. He falls to the outside of the schoool and bang. I got one on.........
However, Im not sure if it is the same in fresh water. i think I have seen Bill Dance say that you can piss a bass off and get him to bite something.