top water swimbait started to sink!

[matt duarte]

hey guys you remember these vids i posted of my first prototype

well i weighted it and coated it with minwax polycrylic stuff.. and waited a day and tested it in the vids above. as you can see it floats, when reeled it was a surface/subsurface depending on how fast you reeled it..

well since than i have a new pattern and just tested it again for kicks..(since my new baits arnt sealed yet.) and IT SINKS! about a 1' every 3 seconds or so... i mean i added hooks but i dont see the hooks making it sink like that, the woods pretty bouyent 4.5oz baited floated....well did float..lol..

also this bait as only been in water for the test vids, it hasnt sat in water for any long period of time.. so is there anyother reason on why it would sink?

Edited December 12, 2008 by matt duarte

[IamSpartacus]

My guess is the hooks would make it sink that much. I'm sometimes surprised how much of a difference they make. Maybe somebody else can offer a better explanation though. What size hooks and split rings did you use?

[matt duarte]

the hooks are actually kinda of small for the sizr of the bait... not sure what type they are i took them from a old bait i dont use... maybe i should take them off and see if it floats after that..

[Palmetto Balsa]

Is it a different bait from the first one or the same bait.

If it is a different bait then, what is the volume of the bait and what is the weight of the bait?

If you use the exact same amount of ballast then the density of the wood could be different or the volume of the bait might be different.

Either situation would make a big difference in the "ROF".

If you are talking about the same bait and now you have painted it then the hooks might be the problem. If you use a thick coat of epoxy on the lure that will also change the buoyancy and action.

Edited December 12, 2008 by Palmetto Balsa

[matt duarte]

no its the same bait, the bait in the video.. when i recorded it i dont think i had hooks on the bait. (baits not painted) i put the hooks on a few days after the vids... and didnt touch it again till today when i tossed it in the pool, and noticed it sinks when it floated before..so the only thing changed since the vids were the hooks,theres no epoxy just a sealer that was applied before the vids

[mark poulson]

Matt,

I think you made a lure that is not buoyant enough to begin with, or added too much ballast.

I shape and finish my lures, without ballast but with the hinge screw eyes and pins, and weighted hook hangers and line tie installed, and then put the hooks on temporarily before I float test them.

The holes for where I want to add the ballast have already been drilled, so I roll the lure on it's side to make sure there is water in those holes instead of trapped air, which would give a false result.

That way, the only variable is the amount of ballast I add.

If you have ballast in the lure, I'd suggest drilling some of it out until the lure floats again. Then you can fill the holes with bondo and paint.

Remember to allow 3-4 grams for the paint and two epoxy coats.

For me, after I've gotten the lure weighted the way I want it in my test tank, a 5 gallon bucket of water, or a tupperware with water for smaller lures, I deduct the 3-4 grams from the ballast I need, and add the ballast that's left. Then I tank test it again, to see how it floats, and add the 3-4 grams, in the form of pinching split shot onto the treble hook tips, just to be sure I've got it right before I continue with the painting and top coating.

[matt duarte]

good deal ill follow those steps next time..i mean its not really a big deal to me that it sinks now it just ook me by suprise cause it was a floater before lol.. the way it floated in the sink (without hooks) was with the tail lower then the head..kinda like the trout was eating a fly off the top water..(didnt plan on that i accidently put more weight in the tail rather then the head.) but it did float.. tested it in the pool and put the lure away..a few weeks later i put the hooks on it just to see what it looked like and decided to test it agian.. and it slowly sank so i think the lure was proly border line sinking befoer i put the hooks on and the hooks were just enough to make it sink...

now i have a new batch so ill take my time with these moer since i have a better understanding on this whole thing..

heres the new line up.. the second on on the top is the crude one i made in the vid... now ive been taking a lot more time smoothing everything out to make sure its right

[mark poulson]

Sounds like you've got it sorted out and you're on the right path.

Slow sink lures generally have enough ballast to let you burn them without them rolling over, like some floaters do. Especially tall bodied floaters.

Slow sink lures are great for rip/pause/rip retrieves, as well as jerk/ jerk/jerk retrieves.

The first one attracts the fish on the rip, and they hit it on the pause.

The second one simulates a struggling fish.

With both of them, since the lure sinks slowly, it will sit almost motionless on the pause, staying in one place, as opposed to a faster sinking lure that might sink too quickly.

So your "error" might turn out to be a success.

Errors aren't really failures if you learn from them.

A recent rework of a lure I made that started off as an "error" is a good example of what I'm talking about.

I made a jointed lure out of a big punker-type glider, and had to redo the joints to get it to swim. It only swims at med. speeds, but it's a great twitch bait.

The last time I threw it, I was doing a jerk/jerk struggling trout retrieve, when, all of a sudden, there was a grey torpedo coming up behind it at warp speed.

I realized that it wasn't a fish, so I burned it back to the boat. Just as I lifted it from the water, a cormorant surfaced behind where it had just been, with a weird look on it's face, like I'd snatched it's dinner.

Funny as heck. But it showed me that the lure had a realistic struggling fish presentation. And that I need bigger trebles.

I can't wait to throw it when they stock trout again, and the big bass and stripers come up and feast on them.

[Lili Man]

Mark,

You account for 3 to 4 grams for epoxy? Is that dipped once or multiple layers of epoxy?

NM***** I just need to read!!!

Edited December 13, 2008 by Lili Man

[mark poulson]

That's a heavy multiple coat base coat of opaque white Createx, or multiple coats of Krylon white primer, Auto air aluminum over that, multiple coats until I get good coverage, and scales of Wldlife sparkle white, three coats to get a good buildup.

Next comes a coat of pastel fixative after the scaling, in case I mess up the next colors.

Three coats of moss green darkened with trans. med brown on the back and shoulders, and more shading of med. brown on the back.

Sometimes I'll do a white belly, silver sides, and then scale.

Then accents of irridescent violet on the cheeks and maybe that, or flamingo pink light stripe down the side. I spray a coat of silver glitter over that, and then two coats of Nu Lustre.

On a smaller lure it may only be 2-3 grams, but I err on the side of guessing heavier when I'm compensating for the weight of the finish. It's easier for me to make a finished lure a little heavier, by either adding some more ballast, or another coat of epoxy, or bigger/heavier hooks and split rings, than it is to try to lighten it after it's finished. Finding where the ballast is so I can drill some out after it's painted is tricky.

I guess I could actually weigh the epoxy before I add it, and try to do the same for all the paint and glitter, but it was easier for me to weigh the lure before and after finishing, so that's how I arrived at 3-4 grams for a 10" four piece jointed bait.

I'm sure this is where the disclaimer is supposed to go, like, "Your results may vary. Consult a physician if your problem lasts more than four hours".

In reality, how heavy you make your coats, how big you make your bait, what kind of epoxy, how many coats of it, all those are variables.

When one of my first "floaters" became a suspending slow sink after I'd finished and epoxied it, I figured I'd better be a little more precise in my weighting. So I did a before and after weighing of the next lure I finished, and that's what I came up with. Two #7 split shots.

Edited December 14, 2008 by mark poulson

[Vodkaman]

Weighing the epoxy is not really going to help you unless you fully understand the density/buoyancy thing that is going on.

Epoxy has a density of about 1.2g/cm3, water = 1.00. Therefore, if you weigh out 1.2 grams of epoxy, you will only be adding 0.2 grams of ballast.

Another example is adding external lead to get neutral buoyancy, then drilling the holes and fitting. The neutral buoyancy is lost and the lure becomes a sinker.

The clue to what is happening is in the density units, ie, grams per centimeter cubed (g/cm3). By balancing the lead externally, you have balanced the weight of the body and lead against the volume of body plus the volume of lead. By then fitting the lead inside the body, not only have you drilled out buoyant material, but you have subtracted the lead volume, by burying it inside the body volume.

Yes, maybe I am complicating things, but this stuff IS true, I have done a lot of testing on this theory. If you can understand the above, it should help in the estimations for ballast.

Dave

[mark poulson]

Good point, Dave.

That's why I always drill out the potential ballast location holes before I seal and test.