sealing the wood
63 replies to this topic
Posted 03 January 2009 - 12:02 AM
i watched some videos on making molds with oomoo 25 silicon and i think ill try tht and fill it with feather lite... ? bout the feather lite... do i screw in while still soft or after hard.. any advice for this stuff would be great cuz i have no idea bout any of this plastic stuff slowly learnin from the site
Posted 03 January 2009 - 02:45 PM
the CPES is is a mixture of propionate and butyrate along with a host of common and exotic chemicals, esters and solvents. most are basicly just a smoke screen most companies use to make it look difficult to the common man as most of the ingredients do the same as another and another does the same as another so on so forth. add a drop and it's another ingredient for the MSDS. the ingredients made from wood mentioned on their site is the propionate and the butyrate which are made from wood. i make my own similar product for my own uses except i use a different (better IMO) plasticiser than them. and of course not nearly as in depth of a receipe... i use a harder (NOT hard) version for sealing and a somewhat softer one for coating for paint. but to each his own i guess.
Posted 03 January 2009 - 02:55 PM
All I can tell you is that I've used it and it works very well indeed. I don't have time to create my own concoctions that may or may not work as well. I do encourage everyone to experiment though and share your findings with the rest of us. We're all here to learn what works and what doesn't.
Posted 03 January 2009 - 03:10 PM
i only did it to save money!!!!! to get the ingredients i paid over $1200.00 (most has to be bought in bulk) but in the end game i'll save around $8000.00 or so when all's said and done. it was worth the time and research to me. CPES is prop. i'm possitive it works. thanks SNAX.
Posted 03 January 2009 - 03:38 PM
I see where you're getting that from the MSDS, but you're mistaken. The proprionate and butyrate you see are solvents, not resin solids. Ethyl 3-ethoxy proprionate is a solvent also know as EEP solvent. And Isobutyl Isobutyrate is also a solvent, known as IBIB solvent. They don't even list the resin on the MSDS, just solvents possible in either part A or B.
CPES is just a hard epoxy thinned out with lots of solvents and probably a few additives to help it penetrate the wood. You could probably make your own version with D2T thinned out with urethane grade laquer thinner.
Edited by Downriver Tackle, 03 January 2009 - 03:40 PM.
Posted 03 January 2009 - 03:44 PM
BTW, the butyrate people refer to is called Cellulose Acetate Butryate, also know as CAB. It's a relatively harmless powder you just dissolve in solvent, so you might be able to find it for sale somewhere on the net.
Posted 03 January 2009 - 06:50 PM
CAB is cellulose acetate butyrate and CAP is cellulose acetate propionate both come pure in solid powder form and are additives used for numerous projects from toys, screwdriver handles and is even a carrier for drugs. the solvent you speak of was not taken from the tree as a solvent they were made into the ester. they are propionate and butyrate in any case. basicly, and i stress basicly, it's the same as dissolving in acetone. ester is easier to mix because it's already liquid form and theres not a long wait before it can be mixed thouroughly in CPES' case. in others for thermo-forming. and so on. and if you spend the money anything can be had, but without the proper license the powder can't be resold by federal law. it needs to be pellet form to unlicensed buyers. and finding the right stuff is expensive. needs the right hardness. or add plasticiser at an order of 500 bucks a Plaster of Paris.
Posted 03 January 2009 - 08:20 PM
The two solvents, EEP and IBIB, are solvents. There's no solids to them. 100% volitile. And there's no CAP in the CPES. It's an EPOXY. Many things are esters, from oils to solvents, to solid materials. The only relation is that they're the product of similar reactions and by no way are the end products necessarily similar at all.
In almost 20 years of formulating coatings, I have only come across a few things that require a license to purchase and can guarantee you that you can purchase either CAB or CAP powder without a license of any kind or prohibited by federal regulation. A supplier may tell you that if they sniff out that someone is messing with it in their garage. The only issues are usually that it is only available in 50# bag minimum from suppliers, and shipping to a residential address.
Posted 03 January 2009 - 09:06 PM
if you've been formulating for that long you must know the definition of epoxy. all EPOXY means is more than one part, but mostly used to describe two. an ESTER not a solvent. it is an ESTER. which means it itself IS solvent in form, or, meaning a liquid chemical form. which are used as additives to give other chemicals different properties. solvent means an additive that creates liquid form or thins an existing form but is not normally used to describe a chemical meant as an additive, it can, but it's not. water based paint has solvent. water being the solvent.
powder can be purchased. but not SOLD without proper license. so getting small quantities is near impossible. i never said it can't be bought. google the esters' names. propionate in any form is still propionate as is butyrate. had to edit. PROPIONATE is in it. i never said CAP was. but acetate may be i don't remember. and cellulose maybe too. which even if added days apart would still be CAP. just smokescreen man, that's all it is. peace.
Edited by b1gf1sh1, 03 January 2009 - 09:19 PM.
Posted 03 January 2009 - 09:53 PM
Man, you are soo screwed up. That is not what "epoxy" means. Look up the chemical definition. By yours, automotive urethanes would be epoxies. While your at it, look up the definition and types of esters.
IBIB is NOT a solid. It is a solvent. It evaporates and it's gone. Same old wood you started with. The proprionate or butyrates you need are solid materials, again.
Edited by Downriver Tackle, 03 January 2009 - 10:14 PM.
Posted 03 January 2009 - 11:06 PM
lol. i did'nt comment to get insulted... the product states it has propionate. you say it has none. your the screwed up one. and yes. the car paint is epoxy. but the world can't just call everything epoxy. so it's assigned by general rule to only certain ones to avoid confusion. two parts or more reacting by catalyst or chemical infusion to form another different form is epoxy. most just think it needs to be inorganic plastics to be considered a candidate but that's wrong. and i don't need to look at eastman. most everything i know about CAP, CAB and esters including plasticiser ESTERS is from contacts there and their distributors. if you have a license for business, website and tax numbers and cash you'd be surprised what they can/will tell you. my next move is going to be making my own epoxy coating for lures, to save money. but thats a ways away. one last note. this site is full of misinformation and even dangerous things too. i've never had any question i asked answered correct yet. i'm just going to log out and return next year i think. good luck:popcorn:
Posted 03 January 2009 - 11:22 PM
I think you have POLYMER and EPOXY mixed up. You keep relying on your distributors, and I'll rely on my college education and almost 2 decades of formulating coatings.
Posted 04 January 2009 - 12:51 AM
Poor man's penetrating epoxy-
Mix some etex. Thin it with about 60% etex and 40% denatured alcohol.
Take two solo 16oz beer cups. Poor the solution cup to cup. Use this cup to cup pooring to cover your lures inside and out. This is very thin like water and covers quickly and penetrates wood fibers especially if wood is heated.
Wear hand and eye protection (standard)
Takes about 20 seconds per lure and is inexpensive.
The alcohol will evaprote in a few hours. Keep area ventilated during this time.
The epoxy cures in a normal time - can easily primer in 48 hours or less even.
note: I had yet to try acetone instead of da, but I have done nearly 200 2-3 oz size lures with this method without error
also: have option of heating the plugs in oven for 15 minutes (250 degrees or so) or microwave for a minute prior to sealing
other things: never touch wood with fingers prior to this or pretty much any time while making lures. Oily fingers do bad things. You can use da to clean the wood though if you feal its dirty
Edited by jameso321, 04 January 2009 - 01:06 AM.
Posted 04 January 2009 - 01:41 AM
Posted by B1gf1sh1
True, no one has answered any of your questions correctly. Also no one has answered any of your questions incorrectly.
Have you answered any of our questions correctly? Who knows, they are not my questions and don't feel compelled to do the research to check them out. I don't mind sitting back and watching the two of you go at it though
But if you want to throw your dummy out of your pram and walk away (until next year), go for it. I'm quite happy with the expertise on this site and am very confident that we will all survive. So bye for now and look I forward to 2010.
Posted 04 January 2009 - 09:07 AM
thts a similar technique i wuz told . just i was told you could heat a plug up and use straight envirotex and lay it on thick it will absorb... with your way and i litterly like dropping them in and scooping them out ?
Posted 04 January 2009 - 10:16 AM
Boy did conversation this get heated!
I prefer to let chemists figure out how to make the sealer and I just focus on making the lures! For me the CPES is the best sealer I've used and as they mention in their info, it remains flexible once cured unlike other epoxies. This helps allow the wood to expand and contract without splitting.
I also think that this site has the best info anywhere on the web about lure making. Now if you're wanting specifics on how to create your own epoxy sealers, maybe this isn't the best source of info. It's like asking us how to create the steel that the split rings and screw eyes are made from and expecting anyone to be able to help. It's beyond the normal scope of questioning that we can be expected to answer from our own personal experience.
Posted 04 January 2009 - 10:45 AM
Sorry for getting out of hand and hijacking the thread, but it pisses me off to no extent when someone just spews out absolute bull like it's fact. I don't want to come off as some chemical know-it-all, but I knew it was an epoxy, and also don't want to see someone chasing these proprionate and butyrate solvents down, thinking they're sealing their baits, only to find out that it all evaporated and they're left with the wood just like it was before they started and wasted all that time and money. We've all wasted time and money in search of the elusive perfect lure coating. Keeping the waste to a minumum is one of the reasons we're all here. Of the thousands of coating projects I've done over the years, finding the perfect lure coating(s) for all types has proven to be the most difficult project ever. 7 years and still learning and working on it. That's why I'm here picking your brains.
Edited by Downriver Tackle, 04 January 2009 - 11:01 AM.
Posted 04 January 2009 - 01:00 PM
For anyone trying to figure all of this out.
Propionate is not a solvent.
Eastman n-Butyl Propionate is a solvent.
Cut form the Eastman site.
Product Description Eastman n-Butyl Propionate is a non-HAP, slow evaporating, urethane grade solvent with good solvency for most coating resins.
In lacquers and ambient cure enamels, this solvent could be used as a retarder solvent. Its slow evaporation rate allows for flow and leveling but does not prevent the quick rubbing and sanding of the lacquer.
Many resins are letdown in a solvent thinning tank to make handling, storing, and shipping easier. Eastman n-Butyl Propionate could be used as letdown solvent because of its low volatility, good solvent activity, urethane grade quality, and high electrical resistance. Since n-Butyl Propionate is not on EPA's HAP list, it could be used as a replacement for xylene in coating applications such as high-solids thermoset enamels, processing solvent for high-solids acrylic resins, and coatings applied via electrostatic spray equipment. This is one of many Eastman solvents that can be used to replace the ExxonMobil’s discontinued Exxate solvents.
Eastman n-Butyl Propionate is an Eastman Performance Solvent.
Now I want get my hands on a gallon of Eastman n-Butyl Propionate and do some new testing.
Propionate wood sealer (not an epoxy) is the best sealer I have ever tried on balsa and other harder woods. It firms up the fibers and seals the cells/pores and is still flexible, to prevent cracking.
Posted 04 January 2009 - 01:12 PM
No you don't. I was trying to explain that the solvent is just that. Solvent. Evaporates and gone. Leaves nothing behind. Does nothing for your wood. Forget that it has the word proprionate in it. That's where the other guy screwed up. There's no relation for us to the proprionate people use for sealing. It's just a chemical structure thing. You want plain ole solid proprionate that you dissolve in solvent. This is where his confusion came from. The MSDS can be misleading if you don't know what the chemicals actually are. He just saw the words proprionate and butyrate and assumed they were the same as the stuff people seal baits with, but they were actually solvents.
Posted 04 January 2009 - 01:18 PM
Here's a fresh can of worms for you. Using the proprionate solvent to dissolve solid proprionate in. LOL