Another DickNite question/problem

[BobP]

James - With airbrush acrylics I blow dry each color with a 1500W hair dryer on low until all the water gloss disappears, then for another 10 secs on high to be sure it's thoroughly dry. I usually let the bait hang for a couple of hours after painting before I apply D2T or DN. Perhaps Auto Air or other brands have different drying requirements but Createx, Smith Wildlife and Van Dykes Natures Gallery seem to do fine. I don't know if you would call that "heat setting". The temps reached are far below what the manufacturers recommend for heat setting paint on fabrics, but I've never had a problem.

[Downriver Tackle]

I was just curious how a slower drying thinner will help things out with an airbrush? I use acetone with a cheapo single action siphon feed and I have no problems. If anything, it might help keep the clear from drying in the tip, but I would think that you would have to wait a little longer between coats. As far as being able to get a coat that is similar in depth and thickness as epoxy (assuming that is what you meant), I can't even see how you could achieve that with 2 coats of DN, even without any thinner. Don't misunderstand...I'm not trying to question your expertiece on coatings, I'm just trying to understand. Thanks.

TJ

I should have typed right solvent and clear. Different types of coatings are sprayable at different solids level. I've never used DN before, but I'll take your word for it. It must be reduced a bit right at the factory. I used a high solids automotive clear, similar to PPG's Deltron, did two coats of clear usually, and got build about the same as epoxy. I'd spray one coat, let it flash while I painted the rest of the batch, then came around again for a second coat. Air dry overnight, then heat cure for about 20 minutes then next day, then ship.

Once I started brushing epoxy though, I'll never go back to spraying or anything that needs multiple coats, besides for muskie lures.

[Downriver Tackle]

I was just curious how a slower drying thinner will help things out with an airbrush? I use acetone with a cheapo single action siphon feed and I have no problems. If anything, it might help keep the clear from drying in the tip, but I would think that you would have to wait a little longer between coats. As far as being able to get a coat that is similar in depth and thickness as epoxy (assuming that is what you meant), I can't even see how you could achieve that with 2 coats of DN, even without any thinner. Don't misunderstand...I'm not trying to question your expertiece on coatings, I'm just trying to understand. Thanks.

TJ

To elaborate on your question.... (was on my way out to work this morning)................

... it doesn't necessarily help it "get out of the gun". That's the easy part. Getting the paint on the surface with the greatest amount of paint solids and still level out is the hard part. Follow me here. When you use acetone, I'm sure you know, it evaporates FAST! So.... as it's traveling through the air to the bait, it's evaporating acetone like crazy and the clear is getting thicker as it does. Problem is that you have to have enough acetone left when it hits the bait for the clear to be liquid and flow. You can accomplish the same thing with less solvent by using a slower drying solvent with the acetone, so the slow solvent keeps the clear "wet" until it makes it to the bait and will flow properly. Acetone isn't the ideal reducer for most paints. Let's say you reduce a clear 1:1 with acetone and another batch with 1:1 toluene or a ketone. Generally, the acetone reduced one will be thicker in viscosity, so it takes more solvent to make the clear sprayable and less actual coating gets on the lure. The only time we recommend acetone as a reducer for spraying is if the customer purposely wants to get a very thin film of paint on a part.

One thing to remember though. Every type of paint has it's own spraying characteristics. Vinyls and acrylic lacquers usually have to be reduced to less than 20% solids or they won't spray, no matter what you use. Some urethanes, epoxies, and 2-component acrylics can be sprayed at over 50% solids. I've formulated clears that sprayed effortlessly and looked like glass at 65% solids. That's why you should never limit yourself to one fix-all solution for all the clears mentioned around here.

I'm telling ya. If flammables weren't so expensive to ship, I could make a fortune and a bunch of happy bait painters here!

Edited February 3, 2009 by Downriver Tackle

[Lure--Prof]

So, how many minutes with a hair dryer on high with a 2-3 ounce bait would you consider is thorough heat set?

Also, I do have a proper heat gun, but that gets very hot. Can be used as well?

I would like to not burn the bait.

Thanks

This discussion has veered off course from its original question, as many of our threads do, in pursuit of knowledge while sharing our experiences. However, James' questions here are great on-topic follow-ups.

James,

I know several members use heat guns for setting Createx. I would suggest that you start out with a hair dryer to get a feel for the process, because you don't really have to go too far just to see how far you can go. I personally use a 1500 watt hair dryer on high to set my lures, and I like to err on the side of overkill--still, I haven't warped any plastic. With experience you will see a transformation take place in your paint; it will look different and it will feel different. When you learn to recognize this transformation, you'll be on your way to learning how fast you can achieve it, without melting your ballast, or setting your hook hangers on fire, or something equally amazing.

The reason we can't say definitively how long it takes is because of the variables in heating and painting methods. Naturally, the heavier your paint, the longer it will take to heat-set. Some builders heat-set each coat thoroughly after one color. I don't, though I normally heat each paint application to some extent before proceeding to the next color. It just depends...Most likely, everyone who uses Createx takes a different amount of time to heat-set a lure or a bunch of lures, but the all-important upshot is that we've learned to recognize the point when it has taken place, even with some colors that don't feel as dry as others.

Createx simply does a disservice to lure builders when they print on their bottles this statement:

"All other surfaces" (except fabrics) "permanent when dry".

You can leave Createx on a surface until the cows come home, but "dry" does not mean that the paint has made the molecular change that it needs to make for our purposes. A coat of Createx can be removed with tapwater...unless it has been heatset. Simply cleaning various stencil materials taught me that.

Dean

[jameso321]

Dean,

I appreciate your input. Thanks.

[Downriver Tackle]

I agree Dean, that's why I choose Auto Air over regular Createx. Regular Createx has to be cured at 325F to cure properly or it will wash off easily with water. Auto Air is only 125F. You'll never get a bait to 325F before you gas the wood and bubble the paint, or melt the plastic. Biggest difference in performance I've seen is that if you do get a gouge that penetrates the clear, Createx will soften and delaminate the whole lure eventually. I don't see that with Auto Air.

Sorry for going off topic again, kinda, but I thought it was within reason. Sorry.

[mark poulson]

Man, I live having a paint expert on site! I feel like I'm cheating every time Downriver answers a question. It's not supposed to be this easy.

Now for my next question.

I use PVC as a lure body material.

I prime with Krylon white primer, rattle can, thin coat.

Then I base coat with Createx new Wicked Color white, and do my other colors over that.

Usually they are a mix of Auto Air, Wildlife, Createx, and Apple Barrel.

I heat set each coat with a hair dryer, first on low, until the gloss/wet look is gone, and then on high for another ten seconds per section.

I usually mix in a coat of Krylon fixative over my scale coat, in case I screw up the next color coat, so I don't have to redo the scales, and I use a hair dryer to dry that, too.

Finally, I use either Krylon spray glitter, or Minwax Polyacrylic with fine glitter to add the last coat, hit it with the hair dryer, and let it hang overnight.

I coat the next day with Nu Lustre.

My question is, do any of the intermediate layers provide some kind of protection for the Createx, since you say it sets at 325f, and I'm sure I don't reach that temp.?

Sorry to be so long winded.

[Lure--Prof]

I agree Dean, that's why I choose Auto Air over regular Createx. Regular Createx has to be cured at 325F to cure properly or it will wash off easily with water. Auto Air is only 125F. You'll never get a bait to 325F before you gas the wood and bubble the paint, or melt the plastic. Biggest difference in performance I've seen is that if you do get a gouge that penetrates the clear, Createx will soften and delaminate the whole lure eventually. I don't see that with Auto Air.

Sorry for going off topic again, kinda, but I thought it was within reason. Sorry.

No, that is well within reason, and is quite worth discussing. I really appreciate your informed question. I don't use a thermometer for my "regular' Createx, athough my lures get quite hot. I, and everyone with whom I've discussed heat-setting, do reach that all-important transition in the paint, after which it is very obviously no longer the same stuff it was before heating, and shows all the characteristics of fullly cured Createx: You can no longer take it to the sink and wash it off, but most noticeably to everyone who uses Dicknite's Topcoat, or lacquer for clearcoating, it is now solvent resistant--and I apply mine with a brush.

I do seal my lures (usually balsa which is prone to extreme outgassing) with epoxy, usually E-tex, which could account for the prevention of outgassing bubbles in the cured paint. But I'm not melting any lips, or even deforming any plastic baits on repaints. I do know better than to hold onto the hemostats holding my lures when I heat-set, as well grabbing the hemostats too soon after heat-setting, so they get pretty hot. After years of rigorous field-testing, this system works well for me, as well as many others who routinely do their Createx and solvent-containing clearcoats the same as I.

According to your figures, I should be having problems I'm not if I'm reaching 325 F. However if I'm not reaching 325, my lures should show symptoms of uncured Createx. Therefore it appears that the paint may well be fully cured before reaching 325, as I'm also guessing that a partial paint cure would still cause problems, that I, and others don't have. It is either this, or 325 F. won't melt our lure plastics unless it is exposed to that temperature for more time than we're giving it.

Which would you guess is going on?

Dean

[clamboni]

It may not be necessary to reach 325. If it cures on a heat press on shirts at 325 for say 7 seconds, it may also cure at a lower temp for a longer period of time. Kind of like powder paint. They say to heat to 350 for 20 minutes, or 275 for 30 f weedguards are in the lead. And either way, you get the same end result. Higher temp, faster cure. Lower temp but still high enough for a longer period of time, slower cure but a cure all the same. I've never heat set my baits quite as long as it seems you do, and I've had absolutely zero problems with DN eating the paint. I've put it on all 3 ways.

Also, something else interesting to add regarding DN and sharpie signatures. The other night I was coating a batch of lures that I'd signed a couple nights earlier. A couple coats in, I realized I'd forgotten to spray some Createx clear over the signatures. No running of the signatures at all. Guess the two days helped set the sharpie ink.

[Downriver Tackle]

As for Dean's question, I doubt anyone is getting a "full" cure. Obviously it's getting hot enough to start some crosslinking and not causing problems with what we do, but I noticed the lack of water resistance pretty early on when I started with Createx. My customers did also. I think we're looking at properties from different views though. I never really had a problem with applying clears over Createx, though I did have to heat it longer than Auto Air to get solvent resistance. Like I noted below, the difference I saw was after the bait was painted and had damage to the clear down to the Createx. After each use, you could see the water penetrating further and further under the clear, throuh the Createx, until chunks of clear started pulling away. One factor too is use. I, and most of my pro walleye customers, troll for walleye and a successful bait may see 6-8 hours of constant immersion while trolling. Much less exposure than most bass baits. I don't recall the issue with my casting cranks. Even though, if we're trying to put a lifetime product in the customers hands, we need to account for apllications like that to make them "bullet-proof", or at least as close to as we can.

I'd say a sure test, if anyone wants to try is: Take one side of a t-shirt and paint it with Createx, then cure it with an iron as they recommend. Then paint the other side, but cure it just like you do your baits. Then!, wash that bad boy and see which side has paint left. I'm willing to bet that the "lure-cured" side is bare, or missing lots of paint after a wash, and the iron-cured side will be perfectly fine. I'd be really interested to see the results. If I had an iron, I'd try it myself. LOL

Clamboni, you're kind of right, but it all depends on the paint. Longer time/lower temp doesn't always work. Crosslinking can be designed to occur at different temps in the various paint binders. My guess is that Createx actually fully crosslinks somewhere around 200F, but they say 325F as overkill to ensure that it is cured completely. Common practice if you're formulating the paint for a material that can handle the temps. If it was anywhere near 300F, even prolonged heat wouldn't do much. You'd have to cure for hours for even minimal resistance properties. If you start getting in the ballpark of the crosslinking temp, which we do with lures and hairdryers, you will start to see some resistance properties develop, but even if you let it cure like that for hours, it will never fully cure, as designed to.

Another test. Take your cured Createx lure and run it under HOT water, rub your finger across it, and see how quickly that paint comes off!

Thanks Mark! Some people here seem to get bent about my "help" and take it personally because what I know about coatings flies in the face of what they've done for years. Mostly those old buggers. LOL But, I'm not here to knock anyones techniques, just to help and point out issues before they arrise. Some of the things I may warn against may not be seen by most people, but if I didn't see it myself, or the potential of it happening wasn't there, I wouldn't even mention it. Just like you guys, I'm only trying to build the perfect paint system and lure.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Downriver Tackle

[hazmail]

DT- although I am probably one of those old buggers' and I don't use any of this 'T shirt' paint;) ( mainly because I can't get it), I find all these, and some of your other posts on epoxy very interesting and informative - But what is happening with that all singing, all dancing UV stable, DN blasting clear? I'm hanging out here, knowing that if D2T is scarce there, it's soon going to be impossible to get here ( and I have one lure to coat). pete

[Lure--Prof]

I too am here because I want to build the best lures I can, and darn sure would not waste (what's left of:?) my time with any kind of personal agenda. From my observations with Createx and per this discussion, I'm guessing that some very significant cross-linking occurs before 325 F., indicating 325 is significant overkill...and what company wants to either get sued or abandoned by its best customers? I've also learned to use sandpaper, as opposed to soap and water to remove heat-set Createx. I've had zero success removing heat-set Createx from natural and synthetic materials used for scale netting in the washing machine or scrubbing them in the sink.

On the other side of this, I believe we're getting the paint surface of these lures much hotter than some people realize: not the same as having the lure in an oven where the entire lure is subjected to a long period at that temp. The paint is obviously transformed after I heat-set. I mentioned in another post somewhere that while I don't yet use a heat gun, I know who some do; and every heat gun that I see has 2 temperatures, usually something like 550 F. and 1100 F. and these are the guns used for heat-setting. I'm not sure what kind of temperature develops when my 1500 watt hair dryer is held in one spot for several seconds an inch or two away, but it is scary hot.

I really appreciate all your info on this subject DRT, but to state that "I doubt anyone's getting a full cure" is contrary to my long-term observations.

However when you say, "My guess is that Createx actually fully crosslinks somewhere around 200F", I really believe you've found the distance between our conclusions.

Some people here seem to get bent about my "help" and take it personally because what I know about coatings flies in the face of what they've done for years. Mostly those old buggers. LOL But, I'm not here to knock anyones techniques, just to help and point out issues before they arrise. Some of the things I may warn against may not be seen by most people, but if I didn't see it myself, or the potential of it happening wasn't there, I wouldn't even mention it. Just like you guys, I'm only trying to build the perfect paint system and lure.

Now, if you'd just left out those condescending, and mean-spirited-sounding first two sentences, your last sentence (my philosophy also) would have sounded much nicer, especially to those "old buggers", whomever they are .

Dean

[BobP]

I think Dean and DRT come to the question of heat setting from different perspectives (bass baits/trolling baits) and both are valid. Everyone develops a finish system that works for them in terms of appearance, ease of use, and durability. You can't compare one to the other unless you take the whole system and how the bait will be used into account. I come at it from the bass bait perspective and basically use the same system as Dean. OK, let's call it "heat drying". I use a hair dryer mostly to speed up painting and I clear coat with DN. What I've found from removing finish from both epoxy and DN coated baits is that the finish on the DN baits is much harder to remove. It will not peel off like epoxy often will. The DN seems to have soaked into and through the acrylic paint. I'm not a coatings expert but if I were to 'crosslink' the acrylic and make it solvent resistant, that might not be optimal for the finish system I'm using for my bass baits. I'm happy with the results and its durability. If something obviously better comes along, I'll switch in a heart beat. But until then...

[Downriver Tackle]

My apologies Dean. I didn't intend anything mean-spirited with the old bugger comment. I call several local custom painting friends old buggers when we debate techniques. Mainly when I rip on them for still selling nice custom jobs for $1.25/lure. I even call my dad an old bugger. Probably a little too loose with it here, I guess.

I'll leave our debate with the fact that we consider a "full cure" two different things. Hey, if it works, it works.

Still a curing issue to me, but between layers............

Bob, you reminded me of another observation (I sure hope this one doesn't get me into trouble LOL) between Createx and Auto Air. I made the same observation as you with the epoxy just laying on top of the Createx with no penetration into it. You will get penetration with Auto Air, even with epoxy. Auto Air was designed for cars and to act basically as a sponge and let the automotive clears soak into it and get the properties of the clear, and awesome intercoat adhesion. The epoxy doesn't quite get through to the bait, but does keep everything together, rock solid. Nobody take me wrong, epoxy on Createx held up great, but if I did have a chunk of clear come off from a muskie or whatever, usually just the clear came off. Most of the time with Auto Air, if something does manage to get through the clear, the paint comes off down to the primer or the lure itself. And occurance of that with Auto Air is much less.

Not to ramble or get too far off, but to explain why clears can still penetrate a cross-linked coating. If they're packed with fillers, usually a good shot of talc, it acts as a sponge. That's another reason why primers are flat and if you spray them with water you can see it stay wet for a while. Gloss paints, the water just beads and runs off. Same with putting another coating over it. If anyone noticed, Most Auto Air is much flatter than Createx.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Downriver Tackle

[Lure--Prof]

My apologies Dean. I didn't intend anything mean-spirited with the old bugger comment. I call several local custom painting friends old buggers when we debate techniques. Mainly when I rip on them for still selling nice custom jobs for $1.25/lure. I even call my dad an old bugger. Probably a little too loose with it here, I guess.

I'll leave our debate with the fact that we consider a "full cure" two different things. Hey, if it works, it works.

Please continue to rip on people who totally undervalue their own work. That is a excellent mission to embrace.

But your last statement, while it sounds as though you're being conciliatory, is actually just a way of saying that I can't grasp what a complete cure is. Either the crosslinking is complete or it isn't. If it isn't, then it is not fully cured.

I can come up with no evidence whatsoever that the paint on my lures isn't fully cured. I don't understand how you can so adamantly insist that the paint on a lure you've never seen is not fully cured. If you simply held one, that would probably do it; but then took it to the sink and tried to remove the paint, I doubt it would take you but a few seconds to agree that it is fully cured, that no more crosslinking could take place in that (nicely applied:lol:) Createx on that bait!

I can only surmise that you don't realize the extent to which we (I & people I know) cook our baits, with hair dryers and heat guns.

From what BobP says, perhaps I should consider going only for a partial cure for use with Dicknite's, as it sounds as though he's getting a pretty terrific bond between his paint and topcoat. Very interesting, and the kind of thing that pops up in discussion such as this one

Anyway, DT, I do appreciate your knowledge on the subject of clearcoats, but please accept the plausibility of the possibility that I'm heating my epoxy sealed lures into the 200+ F. degree range without damaging them, and I'm achieving a complete paint cure!

Sincerely, Dean

[Downriver Tackle]

Dean, Dean, Dean. I tried to be nice. Not anymore. I think the only mean spiritedness comes from you. You just can't take any statements contrary at all, can you? You get this condescending attitude every time. None of us know all about this, not me, not even you! I don't give a rats rear what you think a cure is. A full cure is when the coating reaches the properties it was formulated to reach, nothing else, no matter what. What you are experiencing is probably an adequate cure for what we do, like I noted in my first post! I will remain ademant till the end that YOUR baits are not fully cured as the formulator intended the coating to be with that process. I can't speak for the heat gun guys, but the top temp I got with my 1500W dryer in a sealed box, was 175F and at that temp, most plastics will warp, besides Lexan. At 1100F the lure would catch fire!

One thing to remember also is that DN has pretty weak solvents in it. Try your process with a lacquer and the results may not be pretty. You can spray the harshest, nastiest solvent based clear on Auto Air, and it won't wrinkle after it's been cured at 125F. That's all I tried to point out in the beginning, before you got your attitude, is that at 125F I KNOW FOR SURE my baits are fully cured. You're just guessing!

[mark poulson]

Guys,

This forum is for sharing information, and making friends, not arguing.

A difference of opinion is fine. Taking it personal is not.

When I'm thinking about saying something that maybe I shouldn't, I ask myself whether it's something I would want my kids or grand kids to read.

A little common courtesy goes a long way.

Along with a thick skin, and healthy dose of humility.

"Can't we all just get along?"

Edited February 6, 2009 by mark poulson
poor spelling :O(

[Downriver Tackle]

I borrowed an iron, did the cure/wash test, and I rest my case. Partially cured, not fully cured. I blasted the 175F side directly with a 1500W hairdryer for at least 10 minutes. Popped the breaker twice! Unless you're popping the breaker, your lures aren't even getting that hot.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Downriver Tackle

[Lure--Prof]

DT,

Are you sure you are reading my posts??? Here it is again so you don't have to go back a page.

Please continue to rip on people who totally undervalue their own work. That is a excellent mission to embrace.

But your last statement, while it sounds as though you're being conciliatory, is actually just a way of saying that I can't grasp what a complete cure is. Either the crosslinking is complete or it isn't. If it isn't, then it is not fully cured.

I can come up with no evidence whatsoever that the paint on my lures isn't fully cured. I don't understand how you can so adamantly insist that the paint on a lure you've never seen is not fully cured. If you simply held one, that would probably do it; but then took it to the sink and tried to remove the paint, I doubt it would take you but a few seconds to agree that it is fully cured, that no more crosslinking could take place in that (nicely applied:lol:) Createx on that bait!

I can only surmise that you don't realize the extent to which we (I & people I know) cook our baits, with hair dryers and heat guns.

From what BobP says, perhaps I should consider going only for a partial cure for use with Dicknite's, as it sounds as though he's getting a pretty terrific bond between his paint and topcoat. Very interesting, and the kind of thing that pops up in discussion such as this one

Anyway, DT, I do appreciate your knowledge on the subject of clearcoats, but please accept the plausibility of the possibility that I'm heating my epoxy sealed lures into the 200+ F. degree range without damaging them, and I'm achieving a complete paint cure!

Sincerely, Dean

And T-shirts and popping breakers aside, I already addressed lacquer with which I've topcoated, in my earlier post:

You can no longer take it to the sink and wash it off, but most noticeably to everyone who uses Dicknite's Topcoat, or lacquer for clearcoating, it is now solvent resistant--and I apply mine with a brush

I am sorry that you found my posts mean-spirited, because that was truly not my intention. Are you mad because I suggested that it was possible that I had a better idea of what was happening with my lures in my house than you? Is that what you considered my attacking you?

Well, then I am truly sorry, I had no idea you felt that you were being attacked. Unless you are obviously out of line, I won't question your conclusions on the subjects of paint and clearcoats from now on.

My questions were only intended to further the knowledge base on this subject. I'm sorry I was mean spirited and disrespected you, I really did not mean to do that.

Dean

Edited February 7, 2009 by Dean McClain