Swimbait won't swim
75 replies to this topic
Posted 04 March 2009 - 11:40 PM
Dave , I added the weight to the back (1 full gm), and it is better, seems to 'swim' at an even slower speed. I swam it as fast as one can in a 5' bath tub, and it does dive /roll, but quickly sheds this tenancy, and rolls the other side and vice cersa, all the time snaking as well, should be interesting to test it in the real world of fish.pete
Posted 05 March 2009 - 10:42 AM
The design actually was started with the body shape of the bait. I knew I wanted to have some sort of thru-wire and that's what I came up with. There have been many great ideas and versions here on the TU site, I looked at them and created a hybrid that fit the bill. I had the finished thru-wire skeleton sitting on my desk at work, some thought is was jewelry. Guess it is in a way. The wire is SS .062, not the easiest to work with in tight quarters. No jig, just a handful of various tools and even more patience.
Posted 05 March 2009 - 10:48 AM
My first suggestion for you would be to get the bait running perfectly before moving onto clearing or paint for that matter. Being a fellow unconventional builder trial and error usually means plenty of both.
If you have a pic, please post it. I'm sure the guys who've shared so much info in this thread would be up to offering some opinions. Glad you gained some info from my temporary set-backs and thanks for the compliments.
Posted 05 March 2009 - 01:10 PM
This is how it looked with the weight and hardware in it but after gluing and clear coating, it was out of balance. I got way ahead of myself. And did it again when I re-weighted it. Now, it sinks and is still out of balance. All I could picture was that beautiful snaking across the water. I think that I may have to start all over again. At least I will have an idea of where I am going this time. One more thought when you look at this. I had been laying my weights in horizontally along the belly but I started thinking about Vodkamans example of twisting the baton with around the center of balance so I put it in this one vertically with the heavier part of the weight at the bottom of lure. I was hoping this would get the front section to start moving at a slower speed. It didn't move at any speed. Except when I stopped pulling the lure and it would then snake around and do a 180º turn. Maybe it needs to be placed in the center of balance for each section. Any thoughts on that? John
Swimbait01 pictures by JBlaze1952 - Photobucket
Posted 05 March 2009 - 01:18 PM
That weight looks way too high. I don't remember suggesting putting weight that high. Sorry! Do you have a link?
Posted 05 March 2009 - 01:31 PM
At first glance, and remember I'm no expert but your weight looks to be a little high. I try to keep my weight on pretty much everything a build to the lower third. You may have to the lower the lead down right to the base of your bait. I would remove the lead and clamp the lure together and drill from the bottom up. Actually first I would take the lead out and get back into the tub and hang the weight until you find the sweet spot, then drill. The weight may end up right at your hook mount, if so no big deal, you can pour lead right around it but make sure its correct. getting the lead out at when you pour around the hook mount is not fun. Your line tie should work there. If you were to reshape the body take a look at a jpeg John Hopkins recently sent me, who btw has been a great help. I think this may help you.
Edited by bbduc, 05 March 2009 - 02:16 PM.
Posted 05 March 2009 - 01:45 PM
Here is a pic of it drying on the lure turner. As I said, it is now out of balance and a sinker. The hinges are free and non-binding if I can get it balanced and swimming, I can use it as a sinking swimbait Swimbait01 :: OntheWheel.jpg picture by JBlaze1952 - Photobucket
Posted 05 March 2009 - 01:58 PM
V-Man, you never suggested that. I was thinking about one of the posts that you made a long time ago in which you talked about a stick or broom handle with the weights out on the end of it and the weights in the center of the axis. I think it was when you were explaining the X-ing action of a crankbait. I was hoping that by turning the weight verticle instead of horizontal, that due to the less leverage required to rotate the weight and first section, that it would make starting the movement of the head a little easier and the other body parts would follow. I hope this makes some sense to you as to my reason for installing the weight verticlly. I actually am thinking, that I may just need to go to a slightly heavier more dense wood, and use less weight.
Posted 05 March 2009 - 02:05 PM
Thanks Bob for the JPeg I think I am looking at this thing all wrong and am getting ahead of myself way to soon. I have a bad habit of the so called," counting my chickens before they are hatched". Am going to fiddle with this one a little longer then start on another one, same shape and size. Thanks again for the insight.
Posted 05 March 2009 - 03:49 PM
John, I can see what you were thinking with the broom thing, but with swimbaits, usually too much roll is the problem.
Pit you finished it, but if it is not fishable, you might as well experiment with it. You probably won't be able to split it open now, so don't know what to say.
It is scary the difference a thick top coat makes. I have been caught out by this in the past. Now, when prototyping (basically this is all I do anyway), I always add a top coat, so that the tests are realistic. Also attach hooks and splitrings, they have a profound effect also.
When you start the next one, start a new thread with it.
Posted 10 March 2009 - 10:22 PM
Some time ago I set aside a swimbait that had too much roll to it. Well, after reading your theory above, I pulled the bait back out and intend to do some experimenting. Before I start messing with the weight I thought I would experiment with the tow point location. If I understand your theory correctly, the tow point should go up some but I will experiment with moving it both directions to see what happens.
Edited by RiverMan, 10 March 2009 - 10:43 PM.
Posted 11 March 2009 - 03:54 AM
The eye is a good starting point. I would fit a temporary extended eye, so that it can be bent up or down, without having to drill lots of holes. Extend about 3/8", twisted wire.
Excessive head movement and roll is usually the ballast too far back in the front section. Split the ballast, move some to the front.
If the roll persists, move some ballast from the belly to the back (Pete's solution). This increases the innertia, which reduces roll also.
After each ballast change, experiment with the eye loop (up/down), as the final solution is likely to be a combination of all the above. Use external lead sheet first, before drilling lots of holes.
Change one thing at a time, so that you know what worked. I am still trying to understand all this too, so no guarantees or recrims. Most importantly, report back please.
Edited by Vodkaman, 11 March 2009 - 03:58 AM.
Posted 11 March 2009 - 05:01 AM
Dave, You were right (again)
"1. When the lure is not moving, the ballast keeps the lure upright, as long as the centre of buoyancy is above the centre of gravity. The tow eye does not play. This is stating the obvious.
2. When the bait is moving, the ballast has to counteract the roll. The roll is caused by the water forces across the back, they impart a side force, causing the bait to roll. Because your bait is now being towed, the lever principle comes into play, force x distance. The roll energy is the force and the distance is from the tow axis to the top of the back."etc etc
I never doubted it mate, but just had to field test them in the real fish world of salt water. In the tub they were going O.K (varying degrees), but out there on the lake, they rolled - I'm thinking the problem is the slope of the head, this (I THINK) needs to be symmetrical and weighted low, as you say, get this right and the rest will follow - have been thinking of Dan's comment, so I am going to try a variation of that as well - I'm not going to let this beat me. We caught fish, but not on the three no swim "swim baits". pete
Posted 11 March 2009 - 05:17 AM
I went quiet after your "weight in the back" post. I needed to think about this one. I was not convinced, but there was a small arguement that worked, ie the innertia arguement. But the arguement against this idea was, that the CoG of the bait is raised, making the roll condition worse.
So Riverman. In light of Pete's comments, by all means, try the weight in the back (externally) as a last resort, but don't hold your breath. My money is on the higher eye position and/or split ballast towards the nose.
Posted 11 March 2009 - 09:22 AM
I tested the lure this morning after moving the tow point both up and down. Moving it up may have helped some but very little.
Edited by RiverMan, 11 March 2009 - 10:01 AM.
Posted 11 March 2009 - 02:27 PM
When I said " weight in the back", I meant the back segment (bottom), not on the back of the lure - I think I may have confused some people here, hope not .pete