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Two piece lure problems
17 replies to this topic
Posted 07 June 2009 - 08:33 AM
I recently made a 4", two piece bluegill swimbait, and posted the pics in the gallery.
Report on the 4" bluegill.
Good new, bad news.
The good news, it casts and swims, and it looks great in the water.
The bad news, it swims in a big S pattern, not with the wiggling tail I wanted.
The head section moves from side to side as much as the tail, so the lure goes from bent like a C in one direction to bent like a C in the other.
I think I should have put the ballast in the head section farther forward, toward the nose, to try and stabilize the head more, but the lure is so small it's hard to put ballast where I want it, instead of where it fits in. The PVC body is only 2 3/4"
I've never made a two piece or fished on without a bill that didn't swim poorly, so I don't know why I should be surprised. Even the Jackall Giron, which I was thinking of when I made this one, swam poorly. I've always added bills to correct this, but I had hoped that this one might swim differently. I had grooved the forehead like a rattle trap to try and give it a diving plane and to try and stabilize the head, like the chines on a boat hull.
I also found out it is a very slow sink when I throw it with 10lb fluorocarbon. A foot a minute, so it still wakes at moderate speeds, or with the rod held high. And it's stable, so it doesn't roll, no matter how fast I burn it.
And, if I'm not too radical, it will turn 180 degrees on the pause, without fouling. But working it like a jerkbait is certain fouling of the hook and line.
I'll leave it as is, and make another.
But the glider that's in the same photo shines.
I'll probably start shaping a couple more gliders today, and cut out another bluegill. I'm just wondering how I can weight it differently, or make the tail a third section, using the double O ring method I've seen here.
Any other ideas or suggestions about how to solve this problem would be welcome.
I'm afraid it's inherent in a two piece lure, but I just don't want to think that.
Posted 07 June 2009 - 08:51 AM
First off, I think that the little two piece is a beauty.
The movement sounds about right too, not much more you can expect from a two piece.
But if you only want the tail to move, then your own suggestions sound about right, shifting the weight to kill some of the front section roll. But I think you will just end up with a narrow 'S' swim. But only testing will tell for sure.
You could make the tail hinged, to get more shape to the movement, but maybe this is defeating the object of the exercise. For the hinge, I am thinking the way JR did the pectoral fins, only for the tail.
Posted 07 June 2009 - 09:30 AM
What do they say, if you keep doing the same thing, but expecting different results.....
I was so busy making a new, small, pretty lure that I didn't think about anything else.
I'll probably play around with the double O ring deal on the tail, since I can use really small cotter pins without affecting the weight too much.
When I saw it swim, I felt like I had forgotten to put the plug in the boat! All the bells and whistles about two piece lures went off in my head, and a big sign flashed, "What were you thinking, dummy?"
Posted 07 June 2009 - 10:15 AM
@ mark poulson
Mark , your describtion sounds almost exactly like the swimming action of my recently uploaded "Jointed Rolf's Wiggler" , that one also swims in a sharp "S" pattern on a slow retrieve , on a faster pace that "S" swing becomes narrower ,........and also points its nose somewhat backward towards the angler on the end of a jerk .
Some time ago Jeep had uploaded gallery pictures and a video on the lure action of a two sectioned swimbait , that did provide that typical "snake" action , and I also have a small commercial one(approx. 3") , that acts like this , too .
This one is shaped symetrically in sideview , just like a willowleaf and jointed right in the middle , a Danish lure named "Jack Rapid" ,.............also Jeeps lure is rather more slender in body shape .
So now my theory is , that a high-bodied two-sectioned swimbait acts the way you have described , simply because its high body profile makes up for more GUIDANCE in the water , ....it acts more like a RUDDER , thus swimming that way .
A more slender profile does not do this as much , the front section only breaks out sideward due to the leverage around the tow eye , the line pull forces it back and break out to the other side and as it pulls its tail section behind , the whole lure does that "snake" swimming .
I don't think , that any weighting issues would chance a thing to a high body profile still swimming that "S" pattern .
On a three ,-or even four section high bodied profile this does not happen , since the single sections are shorter , so they cannot evolve this "rudder"-like force .
Just my theories........ !
good luck , Dieter:yay:
Posted 07 June 2009 - 02:03 PM
A two-piece lure will swim in an S pattern. Make the lure 4 pieces and you will get a more sinuous motion.
Posted 07 June 2009 - 04:15 PM
Another possible way to make it swim the way you want it is to make the tail fan out like a rubber swim bait. That way, the resistance is at the tail and most likely the head will swim straight. I suppose you could cut a disc of lexan and fix it around the profile of your lure way bak in the tail to test it. Either that or recarve another leaving a soft plastic type tail on it. That is how the soft plastic baits swim though. Resistance at the tail, it flexs center, and the head should move far less I am thinking.
Edited by atrophius, 07 June 2009 - 04:19 PM.
Posted 07 June 2009 - 04:47 PM
You're probably right about the height of the lure acting as a rudder. In fact, I made the lure's profile a V, with the top thick than the bottom, to help stabalize it on a fast retrieve.
I know a four piece would really swim well. But, with such a small lure, I can't get that many segments without going crazy.
I want to stay away from a soft plastic tail section, because of the weight, and also because I'm lazy.
I just finished shaping and jointing another one, with a plano divider tail attached with two small cotter pins and two split rings, like I've seen it done on lures here. I'll let you guys know how it swims when I take it to the pond to test, THIS TIME before I paint it.
At first I got mad at myself for not remembering the problems with two piece lures. Then I remembered that some of the most experience fishermen I know, tournament guys, sometimes forget to put in the drain plug before they launceh.
If they can forget, I guess it's okay for me, too. Thank goodness the first lure does swim, or I would be really pissed at myself!
I really just wanted to make a simple, quick, down and dirty bluegill bait for the post spawn, not planning another major project.
Of course, as John Lennon said, "Life is what happens while you're making your plans".
Posted 07 June 2009 - 05:08 PM
Dont feel bad bout that Mark, lol i make a lot of topwaters, spook like lures. Every once in a while i will make one that wont walk at all . lol we all make mistakes, its just part of life:roll:.
Well i hope you get your next one to work tho!!
Posted 07 June 2009 - 05:32 PM
Mark- Just to confuse things further here's my two bob's worth. I cannot find your blue gill picture but this sounds like a problem I was having with most (in varying degrees) of the first four swim baits I made. I think your modification “I had grooved the forehead “ might have something to do with the head being force sideways, it is acting like a lip forcing the head (and lure) down at an angle other than an optimum horizontal plane at which I think is the only angle a swim bait will work at. Although these are four segment baits the typical lure shape I make with the top curve (wing shape) and flat bottom all give the same result (dive, head roll one side and very little action), so I had to curve the lower front to match the top which gives an even pressure on the front of the lure and allows it to swim horizontally rather than nose down in a horizontal plane. I also found with these smaller lure, if all the segments are not weighted roughly the same, the relative buoyancy of an unweighed segment will upset the rhythm, also there is a tenancy for this unweighed segment to want to float jamming the hinges -as seen with all the lead added in the picture- after re-curving the nose and adding more weight, these two lures went from diving, nose rolling sometimes swimming failures to 'swimmers', these are both 4".pete
Posted 07 June 2009 - 08:37 PM
I wasnt proposing you add a plastic tail really. I was just mentioning how the plastic ones work. I know they are nontraditional suggestions to a 2 piece hard bait, but it would change the motion of the lure by replacing the vortex at the middle of the bait to water resistance at the tail. This has me intrigued actually. I am going to try it the way I am suggesting and see how it works. I added a diagram of the way i was suggesting just so I can explain it better.
Posted 07 June 2009 - 11:24 PM
Mark, I am also trying to finish some two piece bluegills for the post spawn. I think if you just hinge the tail some how, you will get a lot of the originally indented action back. Some thing like this. Good luck & keep us posted on your progress.
P.S. Love your bluegill paint job.
Posted 08 June 2009 - 08:40 AM
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
I'll keep the faith.
I also found out that I needed to have the lure's nose pointed, like you did.
I make my four piece lures with weight near the hook hangers in the first and third sections, and that seems to make them swim well, and turn 180 degrees on a pull/pause. I typically weight them until they float level, with temporary weights on the hook tines, and then add the additional weight using 1/4" lead wire, which weighs 1 gram per 1/8". I cut it with a drywall knife, rolling it back and forth like a tubing cutter, roll it on my tablesaw top with a piece of 1/4" steel to get rid of the raised edges, and then push it into a 1/4"+ hole. A drop of crazy glue holds it fine. Then I bondo over the top to hide the hole.
If I want a sinker, I add the additional weight both toward the nose, and in front of the rear/third section hook hanger.
I don't think the grooved head is the problem. I started doing that with some three piece lures I made, and they swim fine, with the head stable, and the tail flapping like a flag in the breeze. But all my lures are taller and thinner than yours seem to be. My 4" bluegill, whose body is only 2 3/4" long, is 1 1/4" tall, and only 5/8" thick at the mid point. My 6" three piece bluegill/crappie lures, with 4 1/4" bodies, are 2 1/4" tall and 3/4" thick at the mid point. They all taper back from a more pointy nose to thick and the first joint, and then back down to thinner (3/8") at the tail.
I also taper them top to bottom, so they have a V profile, like a battleship. I think this keeps them stable at high speeds, so they don't roll on their sides.
I actually do that kind of bulb on the end of the tail section on my four piece lures that have a spring holder for a plastic tail. I did it to give me enough space for the tail to mount, but not have a really thick lure most of the way back. It kind of flares out at the tail. They swim fine, so I guess it works.
I copied your double split ring tail on the one I just made, to try and keep the size down.
Man, what a pain to get split rings through the plastic without springing them open!
I wound up using #6 split rings.
If it swims better, I'll probably find some better, smaller rings. Those big rings are gaudy.
How big are your bluegills?
Edited by mark poulson, 08 June 2009 - 08:56 AM.
Posted 09 June 2009 - 11:21 PM
Mark, I have to give credit, where credit is do. I got the tail idea from the one & only, "THE ROOKIE", yes Tater Hog Baits, Matt Mcbee. I called him & I let him know my story (very similar to yours) & he didn't mind one bit at all. Man, I kinda miss that guy.
The tail worked out better than I ever anticipated. It's like it added a new section to the bait.
The other thing I found out, when working with the two piece gills, is that I don't lay my siding sinkers (length wise) from side to side. I used to use pipe cleaners to hold the weight in place & they kept sliding out of place, so I used some of my girls really small pony tail rubber bands. I found that the bands turned the weights 90 degree's & the bait actually swam better than before. Here are some pics to help explain. Good luck & keep up the hard work.
Sorry, the one pic with pipe cleaners, is from another bait, but you get the idea.
Posted 10 June 2009 - 08:49 AM
Thanks for the ideas, and the pics.
When I float test and and add ballast, I hang my trebles with screw eyes, and then hang egg sinkers on the hook tines until I get the floatation I want.
I never mess with my daughters' hair ties, or they would kill me!
Posted 12 June 2009 - 12:40 AM
Good tip Tim. I have been tying my lead (flat strip) with cotton, but it is a nightmare as it keeps slipping on the curved surfaces. The cotton also stretches when wet and I would always forget to wet the cotton before tying.
Posted 12 June 2009 - 12:57 AM
I'd tape on the weights with cable insulation plastic tape for testing , comes off easy as long as it's still wet , ......when it has dried , it sometimes tears off my temporary acrylic topcoat when peeling off ,...........but I'd sand that one over prior to priming , anyway .
Such problem shouldn't occur on PVC , though , since no temporary sealing is neccessary .
greetz , diemai:yay:
Posted 16 June 2009 - 09:03 AM
Well, the sunfish swims like a champ! Whoopee!!!!!
I'm going to make a couple more this week, in shad and baby bass.
The gliders work well, too. I had to trim the Krystal Flash tail on the rainbow a bit to get it to walk well, but now they both work great. Funny how a 1/4" of feather or mylar can affect the bait so much.
I had also made a mini punker, a 5" semi-Sammy, on Friday, I wanted a walking bait that was relatively small, but still cast a long way, to hit the boils. I tried it on Sat., with just a white primer on it, and it walks and glides great. So now I've got two more primed, and waiting for paint jobs. One will be a silver shad, one will be a sparkle white, and one will be a baby bass.
Pics. as soon as they're painted.
Posted 16 June 2009 - 12:25 PM
Crongrats on your lil sunfish8O!!!
Thats funny how just adding a tail that pivots freely makes or breaks a lure, lol well if it was that easy i would be making swimbaits:lolhuh:. Goodluck with your other lures to and cant wait to see your topwaters... maybe i do like topwater a lil to much:teef:.