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Posted 06 July 2009 - 11:22 PM
Lets lust say that you had access to a company that could make you the perfect two part epoxy or urethane finish. What would be the perfect finish to you. Please explain all the thing that are important to you. Just wondering if there were a finish that was made for this purpose what would be the best qualities to include.
Posted 06 July 2009 - 11:59 PM
Well if I had a choice for a perfect finish I would first start out with something I could dip, then I would want it to be safe for my health, then I would want it to dry extremely hard but yet not chip, also I would want a clear that could provide me with the depth and shine like epoxy does and then last but not least I would want it to only take 30 minutes for the clear to completely cure rock hard, but not to be as sensitive as other clear coats.
Thats just me lol
Posted 07 July 2009 - 12:53 AM
Non yellowing with UV additives
Work time (brushing) minimum 5 minutes
Thicker than Etex, thinner than D2T
Cure to non-sag state in max 90 minutes
Full cure (practically speaking) in max 24 hrs
Hard but with some flexibility and impact resistance
Spoopa - I don't see dipping in any two-part finish product for anyone except millionaires.
Posted 07 July 2009 - 01:50 AM
Well you gotta dream big sometime:tipsy:
Edited by spoopa, 07 July 2009 - 01:50 AM.
Posted 07 July 2009 - 05:16 AM
Bob; Please send me a quart to try; gratis of course.
Did you mention glow in the dark?
Posted 07 July 2009 - 12:13 PM
Bob now that was what I was after, all good info. Thank you
Snoopa Bobs right that dipping part is a problem. Unless you have pockets that are deep , but then you would just buy the baits done. We all are just doing this to save money right?
Come on it is a topic of much discussion here.
Posted 07 July 2009 - 11:28 PM
Low Cost - I don't know how many over the top priced resins and auto clears I have stacked in the shed that were next to useless for our requirements.
Dippable - for me this always gave the best looking finish, no matter what you use, plus no over spray etc, just put the lid on and put it away.
Not 2 Pack – cause anything any good is $$$$$ and a year down the track the gallon cans you had to buy have all gone off because you only use ten ounces a year.
UV Stable – if we are paying heaps for some whiz bang coating, it should at least last the life span of your average Bass /Bream. Maybe this is the key, if a lure lasts too long the fish start to recognise it, even become friendly with it, and don't want to hurt it !!!This could be what is happening when I go fishing in the same dam all the time, are Trout that smart??
Stroft – strong but soft, like toilet tissue – soft, so it won't scratch, but strong enough to resist penetration by teeth (not digital).
"New"- If it's not "new", no one will buy it!!
I have this new stuff which is supposed to be all of the above except $ (it's about $280 for a pint) - but isn't that what they all say? Will let you know how this preforms, first try melted all my paint work.pete
Posted 08 July 2009 - 01:38 AM
Duh! I didn't read the original post correctly and thought we were talking ONLY epoxy. Personally, I think the perfect crankbait finish is harder, thinner, and more scratch resistant than any epoxy I've seen so far. I still use epoxy because I can reliably produce a pretty finish with it that is reasonably durable. Adding urethanes to the mix, maybe we now open the door to DIPPING. It certainly yields a more uniform finish and it's QUICK. But I'm doubtful of finding a urethane that's really tough but doesn't require an activator to make it so (which pretty much puts the kabosh on dipping). The mositure cured polyurethanes I've used work well but sure are touchy about moisture contamination, which is a pain for hobby users. Plus, the environmental parameters for getting a great finish with them may be more stringent than we have recognized. Since the humidity and temperature have increased in my garage, it has been more difficult for me to get moisture cured poly to dry out without fish eyes, which was never a problem for me in cooler seasons. The increased temps causing problems is pure conjecture on my part, of course.
Posted 08 July 2009 - 02:25 PM
Well that was a good read but I want to know what you think is a good finish,Rofish. I have come to reason that one finish is not going to cure all. But to have the knowledge of what people would like to use is the purpose of the topic. Already ther is some talk on dipping and on brushing not that one is better than the other but people are differant in what they are comfortable with.
Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:49 PM
The trouble with dipping,is that you need a slender deep container to cover long lures and you have to move fast; before the curing starts in the container. It's ok if the cost is reasonable. Most guys are doing only a few lures at a time and because of the cost go to brushing. So, for me, the end cost is very important. If its a hard finish that doesn't yellow and the cost is reasonable a lot of guys would try it.
Posted 08 July 2009 - 11:55 PM
Ya the container for dipping is maybe difficult but it is a necessary evil. As for as musky lures go just how large are the lures you build? Yes I know that cost is a factor but frustration must count for some thing. Being in the refinish business for almost 30 yrs I try to keep it as simple as possible. I am going to ask around to some people for some options. There are so many options out there that if you talk to the right person you would be surprised what you can find out. The key is to find a fisherman in the companys and new doors open. This is not hard to do if you are in that business. Hope this thread keeps up steam. Thank you for all the input.
Posted 09 July 2009 - 09:13 AM
Dipping will be practical for only a very few styles of bait. If you make cranks, you'll either have the lip attached, or the lip slot exposed at that stage of the process.
From all that I've read on several different boards, over a period of about 5 years, all information leads to what seems to be a trade-off between yellowing and hardness. If you want no yellowing, you sacrifice hardness to one degree or another, and there seems to be no way around that.
While we could ask for the moon, the current status of the chemistry and physics involved in the process of manufacturing the stuff seems to be the primary limitation.
I know of at least a dozen or so builders who have previously contacted manufacturers directly with copious information. From what they've posted, they've been offered one version of the aforementioned trade-off or another. They've been offered different concoctions but the trade-off remains.
Ideally, there would be zero chance of yellowing, maximum hardness, no propensity towards chipping, and the stuff would go on as easily as Devcon 2 ton epoxy (or even easier), be less sensitive to gathering dust, have no static charge after mixing, and would cure faster and require less time on the spinning wheel and lower chance of sagging during the curing process.
Wishing is the easy part...
Edited by fatfingers, 09 July 2009 - 09:14 AM.
Posted 09 July 2009 - 12:14 PM
With that being said you are rihgt in saying that there are some trade offs. But as for flex coat it was the norm that it took 4hrs of turning to let it set up . Then come along Thread Master that only turns for about an hour. Ive used flex coat for 10 plus years but now changed to thread master just because of the turning time. This guy asked the right person to get that product. These products are out there just have to find them. I will not give up asking the question and will never give into that this is as good as it gets.There is always new ways to be had.
Posted 09 July 2009 - 03:30 PM
Mr. Fatfingers; Great writeup! I appreciate your perspective. I'm still using D2T and doing one bait at a time. Did you see the video of the guy in the Finnish Way thread (James Marshall)? He showed a duplicator and was dipping his baits and hangin' up to dry. What does he know? Climate control (per Bob P.'s observations)? Dipping and achieving reasonable quality is the No. 1 criteria in my limited mind.
Posted 09 July 2009 - 04:57 PM
I'm still going to get into putting a clear coating on the batch of lures i've done. I'm hell bent on using automotive sprayable clear coat on my "creations" but my day job is composites so I work with epoxies and polyesters. Everything in life is a compromise and in a couple of weeks I'll probably be here screaming blue murder about why this and that won't work. The neat thing about this forum is that one knows what you're getting into way ahead of time. My epoxy supplier of 20 years can formulate the right product for the application and I'm going to ask for a tough, fast drying, cheap material that won't yellow with time. What are my chances???. Good thread.
Posted 10 July 2009 - 12:57 AM
Auto clear coats are a good choice for this application. As long as you are talking about two part clears. These clears have all the uv ,non yellowing ,flow qualitys that most are looking for. I dont know how you plan on applying this product but do yourself a favor and follow the mix ratios as close as you can. This is very important as to the quality of the finished product. Be carefull and use the correct safety equipment. Being in that type of job that is probably what you do every day right. As far as asking your rep for a product that is a good idea and that is good for all to a least ask if there is a product that you might like.
I really believe that the only real stupid question is the one that is never asked.
Posted 10 July 2009 - 01:09 AM
I fully agree to what fatfingers said. Clear ideas, and no way of expressing them better.
So this is my humble solution to the problem that there isn't a clearcoat invented yet with all the caractheristics we would want it to have: you have to use 2 types of clearcoats on a lure.
For instance, I use one (sometimes 2) layers of thinned epoxy, (brushing, of course), then I apply about 15-20 coats of propionate (because this is what I have) by dipping. The lipslot is there during the process, then I recut it. The propionate is a softer material than epoxy, and it has the role of a cocoon to protect the epoxy, and prevent it from chipping (to some extent, of course).
You have many materials which you could pair, to achieve a better clearcoat.
Posted 10 July 2009 - 01:27 PM
I've been using Dicknite's Topcoat, a solvent-catalyzed moisture-cure urethane, for a little over 3 years now, and having learned its particulars, I am quite happy with it, as are several of my friends. David Sullivan (CaptSully_18 here) and I get together on an irregular basis, and we always discuss clearcoats, which in our case means something like, "If everyone would just put a little effort into learning to brush on Dicknite's, there would be a whole lot less disccussion of clearcoats on TU". We consider it to be much easier to use than epoxies, with much better results, including clarity and durability; but most people begin with epoxies, and urethanes are simply a different product, and do not handle, apply, cure, or store, like the epoxies most people begin with when starting to clearcoat their lures.
Posted 10 July 2009 - 02:05 PM
If one is after production dipping is the way to go. One only needs to look at the past actions of major lure companies. The majority dipped as many process as possible.
Even when making large lures, one doesn't need to actually dip the lure to achieve the same results as dipping. You can roll a lure in a shallow tank or vat to gain virtually the same result as dipping the entire lure.
I have read that some lure makers pour the clearcoat on. Much in the same way the old rod makers would pour the clearcoat on the but end of the rod. Then slowly twisting the rod while gravity does the work.