saint308 Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Clemmy: good post, however just becasue you have a color chart does not mean you can't be custom. If someone asks me to make them a watermelon/red stick, but they want it to fall slow. Then I make it for them with less salt than I normally use...I would consider that custom made. Would that not be true? Saint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted November 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 I am not trying to classify anyones work, not trying to say one is better than the other, just trying to make the point that they are different. There are some types of baits you cannot produce with a hand injection process and visa versa. In my opinion though, if hand injection verbage continues to replace the hand poured verbage as it is currently on the net and forums, the art/skill of hand pouring may be replaced with hand injection equating to hand poured. In other words, hand pouring will be hand injecting. There should be a distinction in my opinion. In a way, the hand pourers should be happy with the surge of the hand injectors as this makes the skill of hand pouring even more valuable and sought after. Let each bait produced stand on their own merit. Just tell the consumer which is which. I am personally proud to label and market my baits as 100% hand poured, one bait at a time. Why wouldn't a hand injector be just as proud to label his/her work as hand injected? Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint308 Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 So, some of us make baits that are hand poured and some that are injected. Do we need two sites? I don't think the customer cares if it was injection poured with our feet, as long as they catch fish. Just my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear21211 Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Jim Is this what you would consider a hand poured bait? Now is this considered a hand poured bait? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disturbingiraq Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 I am not trying to classify anyones work, not trying to say one is better than the other, just trying to make the point that they are different. There are some types of baits you cannot produce with a hand injection process and visa versa. In my opinion though, if hand injection verbage continues to replace the hand poured verbage as it is currently on the net and forums, the art/skill of hand pouring may be replaced with hand injection equating to hand poured. In other words, hand pouring will be hand injecting. There should be a distinction in my opinion. In a way, the hand pourers should be happy with the surge of the hand injectors as this makes the skill of hand pouring even more valuable and sought after. Let each bait produced stand on their own merit. Just tell the consumer which is which. I am personally proud to label and market my baits as 100% hand poured, one bait at a time. Why wouldn't a hand injector be just as proud to label his/her work as hand injected? Jim I am gonna have to agree to disagree again, Jim. One person writes left handed, another writes right handed. Accomplish the same goal, yes. Hand pouring has its advantages, hand injecting has its advantages. This is where our agreement stops. You use the same plastic, same colors, same glitters that can be bought by any avg joe in the market. Therefore they are on the same level. How you race the race is up to you. The finish will still be the same. I can hand pour, I can inject, both produce the same results for me. A bait that I can not find at Bass Pro, Cabelas, or Dick's sporting goods. I don't see why "hand pourer's" are so threatened by hand injection. Is it the fact that now someone with less experience can replicate baits over and over again without the trial and error that the "hand pourer's" earned their badges of honor over. No I think not, well atleast I hope not. I have hand pour molds and injection molds and personally like the injection cuz it makes flawless baits. It doesn't matter who the mold were to come from, I happen to have bears molds, but del has come out now with some injection molds and im sure bob has some as well. My point being why does this always have to turn into we are better than you. Last i seen in photos the baits actually looked better and had more detail but maybe I am just an untrained consumer. Thanks Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted November 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Simple, then market your baits as hand injected instead of hand poured. To me it still comes down to how the bait is made, poured by hand or injected by hand. Bear, I know I pour mine each bait by hand and therefore mine are hand poured. I have no clue how you do yours pictured. Be glad to post up other pictures in that style that were hand poured as well that are not single colors. That isn't the issue though to me. If I make mine hand poured, then it is hand poured. I get asked why I don't hand pour certain baits all the time. The brush hog type baits is a common one asked about. I am honest with my customers and dealers, I tell them that is a bait that has to be injected unless done in a one-sided mold. What more is there to say? Guess we have to agree to disagree on this. to me hand poured will alsways be hand poured, not hand injected irregardless of the resulting bait. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted November 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) Hey Mike.... Agreed we all use the same ingredients and we are all going for the same result. Neither is better than the other as I said in the other posts. I am just advocating that if you make your baits AND SELL THEM, label them as how they were made. Be proud the baits were made by hand injection as I am that mine are made by hand pouring. Why label them as hand poured unless you need the hand poured label to help sell your product? Label the baits as hand injected and educate your consumers as the hand poured community has and will continue to. There is no fear on my part for sure of the hand injection systems. Some of the baits I saw were SICK!! (AS in good!!) I can't make those colors for sure by a hand pour method! I know my stuff will always have a niche. I still will disagree that we reach the same ending. As I stated, I can't make some things hand injection makes, but there are just as many things hand injection cannot make that can be made through hand pouring. That is the whole point, the 2 are different. Zoom, BPS, Cabelas, Culprit, Berkley, Reaction Innovations, all make detailed, good looking baits by injection. Not hand injection though, so give them a run. Maybe I just see an old art form or old school way of doing things getting pushed by the wayside because of hand injection. I hope to keep the art of hand pouring alive as a hobby and skill as it has provide many hours of enjoyment and plesure and continues to. When I am not in teh boat, I am thinking up more concotions!! Jim Edited November 3, 2009 by ghostbaits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disturbingiraq Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Simple, then market your baits as hand injected instead of hand poured. To me it still comes down to how the bait is made, poured by hand or injected by hand. Bear, I know I pour mine each bait by hand and therefore mine are hand poured. I have no clue how you do yours pictured. Be glad to post up other pictures in that style that were hand poured as well that are not single colors. That isn't the issue though to me. If I make mine hand poured, then it is hand poured. I get asked why I don't hand pour certain baits all the time. The brush hog type baits is a common one asked about. I am honest with my customers and dealers, I tell them that is a bait that has to be injected unless done in a one-sided mold. What more is there to say? Guess we have to agree to disagree on this. to me hand poured will alsways be hand poured, not hand injected irregardless of the resulting bait. Jim Now Jim that is fine and if I sell them that is how they will be promoted. But reading through these other posts I found something else that makes no sense. How would a hand pourer's bait be any different than mine as far as custom. Jim this is not directed at you its a shot gun blast. Will one of you old school hand pourer's please teach me how so I too can make custom baits. This is just insane to think that just because someone uses a color chart that they dont have custom baits. Where is the written standard so that we may not fall in the non custom catagory. Everyone is reading to far into this. I know nobody that on a small scale that is not custom. They dont work for z00m they dont work for Berk ley. Carolinamike would be the closest I have ever seen to mass producing baits. Everyone needs to step back from the table, think about what they want, and do what makes them happy. But don't knock someones product or way of making a product. Go back to the old school adage of, if you can't say nothing nice, don't say nothing at all. Thanks all Sorry for the rant Carry on Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear21211 Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Jim will all respect you are being totally ridiculous to the hand poured bait versus injected bait. I posted 2 pictures of the same bait you claim yours is hand poured I claim mine is hand poured. Can you tell me the difference in the 2 baits pictured? What is the big deal as to the process you use to get the plastic into the cavity of a 2 piece mold? You want to talk true hand pour break out the 1 piece molds. You get into 2 piece molds you have crossed a bridge in the type baits you make. My question to you is how is your bait pictured any more a hand pour than the one 1 pictured? How is your bait better or worth more money than mine? How does your bait make you better at making that bait than mine? This is all I am trying to understand. There is 2 baits out of the same type mold and you can claim yours is hand poured and I can not? Why? Simple, then market your baits as hand injected instead of hand poured. To me it still comes down to how the bait is made, poured by hand or injected by hand. Bear, I know I pour mine each bait by hand and therefore mine are hand poured. I have no clue how you do yours pictured. Be glad to post up other pictures in that style that were hand poured as well that are not single colors. That isn't the issue though to me. If I make mine hand poured, then it is hand poured. I get asked why I don't hand pour certain baits all the time. The brush hog type baits is a common one asked about. I am honest with my customers and dealers, I tell them that is a bait that has to be injected unless done in a one-sided mold. What more is there to say? Guess we have to agree to disagree on this. to me hand poured will alsways be hand poured, not hand injected irregardless of the resulting bait. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint308 Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Jim, you have been doing this a long time and are pretty good at it. You have always answered any question I asked and I appreciate it, but this has become a goofy thread. Maybe we should just agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted November 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Mike: You will never read that I think anything on here is not custom. It all is. I NEVER said that at any time. I still don't think anyone has said anything not nice. There are differences in the 2 process, great. Make your market and sell or fish your baits. I never once said anything bad about hand injection. I would just like to see it called that so those that are looking to get into making baits understand the difference. Many use the terms hand pouring and hand injection interchangeably. Thay should not be. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disturbingiraq Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Mike: You will never read that I think anything on here is not custom. It all is. I NEVER said that at any time. I still don't think anyone has said anything not nice. There are differences in the 2 process, great. Make your market and sell or fish your baits. I never once said anything bad about hand injection. I would just like to see it called that so those that are looking to get into making baits understand the difference. Many use the terms hand pouring and hand injection interchangeably. Thay should not be. Jim Jim once again if you read my post it specifically said it was not directed at you. But thanks for noticing my post anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted November 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 I agree Chris. Sorry Mike... guilty!!!! I'll be totally honest, I want to hand inject really bad! (Beyond my test set-up situation I have.) I have already put 20-30 recipes aside as the baits and results are just SICK!!! I know I could make some blow your mind colors. I just want to be able to replicate the laminates and other crazy stuff a year or 2 down the road. Or next week. Just like I can now with hand pouring. If I do, I will proudly say I hand inject those baits and explain the benefits of those baits made, just as I do the hand pours. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear21211 Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 You cant answer because there is no difference. Your Hand poured baits are no better than any other bait that is posted on these boards. Regardless what method people use to get the baits in the cavity the baits are the same. You have your opinion and the rest of us have ours. Ford Vs Chevy right? Face the fact there is no difference in the baits you make and the baits I make maybe you make them prettier. Maybe yours are clearer but fact remains they are all still hand created. PS it would really be nice to see something positive come from you . Lately all you have done is condemn peoples process, the clarity of our plastics the way the baits fish. Most of your post as of late is nothing more than you trying to promote your experience and others lack of. What is your goal Jim? You want to have a separate board for hand Injection? I do not understand what you are trying to accomplish. You say you are trying to keep the old school methods going? Maybe you should go back to true hand poured 1 sided molds. But then I guess your baits would not be as pretty as they are now. Where in the soft plastic handbook does it say the right way is Jim's way or Bear's way or for that matter where is the hand book? I for one enjoy using the injectors and think the baits they produce look and fish pretty durn good. Why cant we all just get along and enjoy the products and choices we have available? Man look at where this hobby, business has gone in the last few years. No body has forced you to change what you do and I do not think nobody has condemned the methods you use. Why not let people make there own choice on what they do or how they do it? Let them have a choice just as you do without them having to wade through all The BS post you make about which method is better or different? Man Grow up a bit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted November 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) You want to talk true hand pour break out the 1 piece molds. You get into 2 piece molds you have crossed a bridge in the type baits you make. Bear, I pour as many, or more, 1 piece molds as I do 2 piece. To be exactly accurate, I pour 10 1 sided and 10 2 sided. Be glad to post the pictures up of baits made in 2 piece molds that are intricate enough to be made only by the hand poured process. Still not my point. Call it what it is... Maybe I am ridiculous. I hand pour, therefore I am.... LOL!!! Jim Edited November 3, 2009 by ghostbaits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FishingBuds Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Hey Mike.... Agreed we all use the same ingredients and we are all going for the same result. Neither is better than the other as I said in the other posts. I am just advocating that if you make your baits AND SELL THEM, label them as how they were made. Be proud the baits were made by hand injection as I am that mine are made by hand pouring. Why label them as hand poured unless you need the hand poured label to help sell your product? Label the baits as hand injected and educate your consumers as the hand poured community has and will continue to. There is no fear on my part for sure of the hand injection systems. Some of the baits I saw were SICK!! (AS in good!!) I can't make those colors for sure by a hand pour method! I know my stuff will always have a niche. I still will disagree that we reach the same ending. As I stated, I can't make some things hand injection makes, but there are just as many things hand injection cannot make that can be made through hand pouring. That is the whole point, the 2 are different. Zoom, BPS, Cabelas, Culprit, Berkley, Reaction Innovations, all make detailed, good looking baits by injection. Not hand injection though, so give them a run. Maybe I just see an old art form or old school way of doing things getting pushed by the wayside because of hand injection. I hope to keep the art of hand pouring alive as a hobby and skill as it has provide many hours of enjoyment and plesure and continues to. When I am not in teh boat, I am thinking up more concotions!! Jim Honesty is best, and I think this is what its all about. Things adapt and change, I'd be proud of knowing this all started from hand pourers. I mean look at whats been created and what you guys have done for goodness sakes! wouldn't you realize that newbies like myself would look up to you hand guys because of your skill and knowledge? I think this would be the best thing to happen to you guys, it would in my mind seperate you that much more from what has become of lure making, could legends come into play here? seriuosly think of it. I know Its human to feel threat from something but, I'm a guy thats just looking into a hobby that intrest me and I'm tickled at what is all available. When I dig deep and find out that there is a internal war going!? Then thats a big turn off, if I go to injection then I already know how I'll be looked at and possibly treated from the pourers! this is like Harley riders verses rice rockets. So, I believe its a feeling of threat from this new injection stuff, but its way from it. Really they all should be called CUSTOM baits anyways period Just a newbie looken how to make baits 2cents worth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted November 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Face the fact there is no difference in the baits you make and the baits I make maybe you make them prettier. Maybe yours are clearer but fact remains they are all still hand created. Maybe you should go back to true hand poured 1 sided molds. But then I guess your baits would not be as pretty as they are now. Man Grow up a bit! There is a difference, sorry. Prettier is your word for it.... OK... I'll take that. Most of the stuff I do is 1 sided and yes, it is still as pretty. You don't see anythng I do so how would you know what I pour? Or, maybe you visit my site too. Thanks!!! I am not hammering you or anything you have. If everytime someone is looking to do something a person says... Go to Bears' website, or go to LC's website, or Go to Del's website, there needs to be someone to say look at all the options, not just one. I guess you don't recognize the posts that are about recipes, mold making etc as positive. No surprise there. PS As far as the clarity issue, look over the post, you have others to attack as many others stated M-F as the clearest. With the newer samples, Chemionics may be right there as well. Have a fun day dudes!!!!! Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted November 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) wouldn't you realize that newbies like myself would look up to you hand guys because of your skill and knowledge? In the immortal words of Charles Barkley... I'm not a role model!!!! LOL!! Besides, I am not here to help. Plus, I lie about everything!!! Dude, it is not for the glory to help guys, it is pay it forward. Jake and Chris were my idols when I got started. I tried to do what they did. Nil, too. Most of you guys never even saw their work. I still owe a debt and do help way more than anyone knows or needs to know. It doesn't matter. No matter though, the naysayers and name callers can pop back in when they will. Tearing me down will just make me stronger. Degrading my product or my work makes it that much more interesting and pushed me to make things even more outrageous! I love it! When I get my hand injection stuff and start making SICK baits, will I still get reamed out for not doing it the way others are? Hope so!!! For now...I hand pour, therefore I am... Jim Edited November 3, 2009 by ghostbaits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted November 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) This is like Harley riders verses rice rockets. AWESOME!!!!! I hand pour, therefore I am! Jim Edited November 3, 2009 by ghostbaits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear21211 Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 LOL Jim I will let this rest. You in your own mind are far Superior to others. PM Sent Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemmy Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Disclaimer: I don't inject, and I don't use pot.... As far as the "Custom" issue, I was merely trying to demonstrate that labels are misused and thus potenially misleading... If you are repeatedly making the same bait, of any type, then it is not custom. If a company makes the same crankbait style, in a given line up of color schemes, then it is not custom. This is not a bad thing! If I get a great bait, I'll want another exactly like it (or 10)! But it is not custom. If the same company offered to paint that bait to my specifications, then it would be custom painted, but still not custom made. Only if the company offered to make a crank that would run 19' deep on a 100' cast with 8# mono, wide wobbling action, then THAT would be custom made. There are several bait makers on TU that do offer this service. But ordering one of their stock baits in a stock color is not custom made. It is no different than a WEC bait, or a Salmo, or a Bagley, only the scale of production differs. Of course the quality can (and should) differ, but this still does not make it custom. For years, Creek Chub used to offer custom plugs, with a minimum of like 5 baits. You could order no lip, bigger hook hangers, novel paint etc. Can you imagine PRADCO doing that now? Most of us got into this as we wanted a bait that was different than what was currently offered. If that was what you were looking for, you had either have it custom made, or make it yourself. I figure we all should strive to make the best baits we can, for ourselves, or whomever, and not worry about labels. Clemmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Clemmy, I understand what you're saying in a way, but I feel you're classifying the word custom wrong here. I'm currently working with a customer developing new colors that are unique to his custom baits. This customer has spent years in developing. A lot of time has been put into testing prototypes, not to mention numerous revisions made to baits in order for them to have the custom action that the customer desires. So he's got his dream now with a lot of money to invest to mass produce his custom products for the market. So now because it's being made by mass production to be sold to everyone in his custom designs and colors, you wouldn't consider this to be a custom bait anymore? At some time or another I believe every bait in the fishing industry is custom to some poor old soul who spent a lot of time and effort in testing, developing, retesting and revising to come up with a successful product for the mass market. I understand what you're saying about the crankbait market and the plastic market's not that much different, but I'm sure Ed Chambers at Zoom still feels he has custom products, even though they're common to me and you. Like I said, I kind of understand what you're saying, but I also feel like you're saying that when I do custom work that goes out to you and everyone else in the mass market, it ain't custom no more. Let's not forget about us poor fellows that really work hard to help develop baits, although most companies almost never publicly acknowledge their injectors, we still take pride in the custom work we do and the products we produce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint308 Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 So the answer is yes. Got it. Thanks. Saint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemmy Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 (edited) Mike, I agree with you. You are making custom baits at the moment. But when they start to be replicated they are, by definition no longer "custom". This in no way makes them any less new, innovative, or special! You are also correct in saying every bait at one time started out in the development phase, as of course, they did. So by your definition, every bait ever made is "custom"... I mean absolutely no offense to anyone, and the chagrin that the "custom" term proves my point about labeling terms is difficult at best. Personally, I view any bait made for a defined specific purpose as "custom". But this is my view, and not truly what "custom" means by definition. Clemmy Edited November 4, 2009 by clemmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Clemmy, try telling that to my customer who has invested thousands of dollars in molds. It'll always be custom to him, and yes that's exactly what I'm trying to say, every bait out there is custom to the person that developed it, produced it or sold it to another company for mass production. I have one bait in my private label line that's a very small bait that I actually started out hand pouring, then hand injecting and now machine injecting. I've sold millions of these things and replicated colors thousands of times, and I will always feel this is my custom bait, as any bait developer would. It's just that I hear a lot of people talking about hand pour, hand injected, it's really just a matter of pride. Be it hand poured, hand injected or machine injected, it really comes down to the person doing the work that makes a quality product. I can mass produce almost any type of soft plastic, be it super soft to saltwater hard. The word custom as it relates to this industry covers a wide area. But no matter how you look at it if you developed a bait today and let's say sold it to Strike King and made your millions you would announce to the world that you custom designed that bait for Strike King and to you it would always be custom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
