Vman rocking beam duplicator
40 replies to this topic
Posted 20 October 2009 - 08:57 PM
Haven't been around much lately have been starting a new business. That tends to consume every last desire. But I get on about once a week to check things out and I see this. Good job v-man. I feel a rounder cutter would make less work in the end. But not a completely round one. Just rounded edges. The tip you have could be honed down to a slight rounded cutting edge. Probably app. 1/16 of an inch (I know our stinken inch not metric) rounded on the edge to match up with the previous cut. If you made a tool with wood to hold the bit, the angle would match on both sides. I would think you have a stone for sharpening your knives. There is a bit that looks like a porky pine that might cut a little rounder. Some thing that would be fun would be to add a flat guide instead of a round one. Then add a third axis so it tips back and forth with the length of the bait? But still limit the movement so it would not tip over. That way a flat cutter would follow the contour of the bait. Come to think of it that would not work on your design because they are followed on opposite angles but it would work it they were on the same plane. (following the same angle) I left this just for ideas.
On the clamping of the cutting peace I think stay simple and cut a peace of plywood in the shape of a square c then cut a peace that is the exact size of the in side of the c. Put a hinge on the two peaces to make a door. The out side can be screwed in place after it is aliened the in side would hold the blank guide in place. Then make a door lock similar to the ones you see on a enclosed work trailer. That way you grab a blank set in there and when you close the (door) it will lock it in place. Speeding up the reloads. We both know the point of it is faster is better.
By the way did you add counter weight to the guide end or is all the router weight on the master?
I also think you should leave the router going as fast as possible. Slowing down would add chatter.
Posted 20 October 2009 - 10:34 PM
Kelly, thanks for all the input and feedback.
I managed to purchase a full round cutter, but it is a 12mm collet, so now I need to find a collet.
I take your point with the rounding of an existing cutter. I have a few old cutters, I could give that a try. I have a couple of stones for sharpening the plane m/c blades, be they seem a bit too fine for this job. My next tool purchase will be a grinder, but not even sure about this use, could be dangerous! I have never used one.
You are correct about the stock clamp, I started to get really complex with it. I viewed Jerry's machine again last night, such a simple spring loaded affair. Thinking about it, the stock was kicking out, because it was just too large for the body size I was cutting, also, on the original spring loaded spike plate, the spikes were too close to the edge of the stock.
So I am re-visiting the spike plate and using an idea similar to yours, by adding a top and side plate, for support ('L' as opposed to your 'C' suggestion). This will help to locate the trimmed down stock in the correct place. Also the two spike plates can be opposed at each end of the stock. I will keep your suggestion ready if this one should fail.
As for the counter balance (you are on the ball!), I have used two plastic bottles, partially filled with water, hanging beneath the stylus end. This arrangement is easy to 'tune' the pressure on the cutter and the stylus. If you view the second picture in post #20 http://www.tackleund...wokshops-2.html you can see the machine behind the router table, with the bottles hanging.
I did not want to get involved with speed adjustment, so the thing is turning at 23,000 rpm. With the reduced stock, this seems to be working just fine.
Once again, good input, thanks.
Posted 26 October 2009 - 08:00 AM
Unable to purchase a 12mm collet at this time, I have modified the duplicator to accept an angle grinder, fitted with a standard 4 diameter saw cutter, similar to that used in Jerrys machine. I now understand why Jerry went the saw cutter route.
The first cut of the slender saw cutter is effortless compared with the bulky router cutter, which has to be eased into the wood.
No tearing or fluffing up of the grain as given by the router, as the saw cut is in a different direction. The saw cutter is perpendicular to the wood, whereas the router cut tends to give varying tangential cuts on certain parts of the body, requiring more work to clean up.
A better finish is achieved, again because of the direction of the cut, also 40 cuts per revolution of the saw cutter compared with 2 cuts per revolution of the router bit. 8000 cutting strokes per second compared with 766 cutting strokes per second of the router.
The finer cuts place less load on the stock and so no failures due to the stock kicking from the cutter. This enabled me to greatly simplify the stock clamps, enabling faster loading.
Less clean-up as the saw cutter keeps the profile right to the end of the body.
Saw cutters are a fraction of the cost of a router cutter.
The cycle time was reduced to just over 5 minutes per body.
The cutter marks/ridges are prominent, as with end milling, but I consider this acceptable for the moment.
Scary machinery, safety procedures are essential. I need to do more work on Mk2 to improve user protection.
The 4 cutter does not allow enough depth of cut, before the grinder body fouls the stock. I had to chamfer the stock on this 3.5 body, to clear the grinder body. This is why Jerry used the 6 saw cutter blade and is probably the reason why he has safety concerns. The 4 teeth are moving at 153mph, the 6 teeth move at 214mph. Any failures at these speeds is going to hurt.
Alignment of the grinder cutter is critical. If the cutter is not perpendicular to the stocks rotation, pressure will be imparted on the side of the cutter, risking failure. Two axes of alignment have to be considered, yaw and roll. Both will cause side pressure. An indication of any misalignment can be seen on the cut stock, were the stock has rubbed on the cutter, black burn/friction marks. Once the cutter is correctly aligned, no marks are visible.
Jerry, could you give me your thoughts on the 6 saw cutter, as I am thinking of going this route. PM or post.
I have already bought all the materials to build a Mk2, to incorporate everything I have learned from the Mk1, which will probably be converted to firewood after extracting a few salvageable parts. For now, it is back to the drawing board (CAD work).
Edited by Vodkaman, 26 October 2009 - 08:03 AM.
Posted 27 October 2009 - 07:20 PM
V-man your saw blade is cutting perfectly straight leaving the tooth marks but if you tip the grinder 15 or 20 degrees it will be cutting on an angle not leaving the groove in the middle of the blade. That should leave a rounder cut not the 60 deg. angle of the teeth. The one thing is you would need to experiment on the angle to get the cut to disappear. But that is your specialty.
The grinder route is the same I followed. Have all my parts sitting weighting for me. I think when I have time I will go with something similar to Jerry's idea With the tipping board. What are the RPM your grinder is running at? Just double check the blade tolerance.
Posted 27 October 2009 - 07:47 PM
Yep, my issue was limitations from using stock blades, most are ATB (Alternate Bevel tooth) Combo, or flat tooth. I spoke with a local sharpener about having the teeth sharpened like the 3rd tooth on a triple chip blade:
like so: >>> / <<<
Have not done it yet, but that should lessen the spiral grooves left by conventional blades.
I had the same issue, the first blade I used was from a biscuit joiner as its rated to handle the RPM's but the right angle grinder itself is nearly the same diameter, leaving little clearance for cut. This is a big problem for the router designs I've fiddled with also, in order to get a preferrable depth of cut I had to use a 4" bit which is scary running unprotected
Spot on, you've prefaced nearly every problem I encountered, which makes for a deceptibly complicated build. I had sideloading problems but corrected it by tilting the tracer and blade at a slight angle of a few degrees. This allowed the blade to lead into the cut, similar to the way crown moulding can be made on a table saw. The tilt produces a cove cut rather than a .tight kerf.
I was using high tooth, 6 1/2" Amana Ice blade intended for a circular power saw.
I chose the blade for 2 reasons: high tooth count and the RPM rating was much higher than any other blade on the shelf.
However the RPM was still below the RPM stamped on the grinder:
Circ saw @ 4650 rpm
Grinder @ 11,000 rpm
Amana Ice blade rated 10,000
Needless to say I put a variable speed control on the tool to drop it a couple thousand below rating, which hurt the torque on the grinder
I did a test run on a blank Nathan loaned me from the 2008 meet, it was a great subject because he makes big bass baits and I ultimately wanted to be able to carve a 4x4 with the machine.
It cut pretty damn well, but big room for improvement
I have a new shop out back, hoping to get it setup before winter rolls in, if I do, the project will get some floorspace, but like you, I have a few designs to burn for heat
Good luck, stay safe
Posted 27 October 2009 - 08:02 PM
exactly, sorry kelly you beat me to post, or I would've quoted you earlier.
Mine is standard 11,000... they do vary, even on models without various speed.
Couldnt agree more and emphasize that. All I thought about while running mine was the possibility of the carbide teeth separating from the blade
BTW, this is a doable & proven method. I've seen large versions used for duplicating wooden aircraft propellers, Lee Sissons machine is similar, and I'd venture to say Rapala's is similar, although I couldnt see all the guts of the machine from the video LaPala so generously posted.
I think alot of people could learn the concept and make thier own version, but its nearly impossible to design this jig for everyone to build. I scrapped countless hours and parts from the home improvement stores trying to stick to an "easy and available" list of parts, but its tough for sure.
Posted 27 October 2009 - 09:36 PM
Kelly and Redg8r, you both suggested angling of the cutter (roll). This surprised me, as I thought that this would load the cutter, as I stated in my previous post. After re-evaluating, I realize that I was wrong. I will try to find a solution for a roll adjustor for the beam and do some experiments.
The grinder spins at 12,000 and the 4 cutter is also rated at 12,000. the next beam I build will totally enclose the cutter, as my heart flutters every time I switch the machine on. I will try to find a speed controller, but I am not looking forward to shopping for that, as it will stretch the limitations of my hand signals (language problems). The loss of torque is disappointing news too.
The 4 cutter fits my needs, as a 4 body length would be the biggest I would ever throw. But if I want to sell lures in the future, customers are going to expect a range of sizes.
My initial concept was to come up with a design that others could build. However, design is a huge responsibility and I am not sure I would be able to sleep at night, knowing friends are risking life and limb with such a design.
Thankyou for the input.
Posted 27 October 2009 - 10:10 PM
Just to be clear about what i did, picture your miter/chop saw, it plunges up and down, now picture setting the miter degree to 3 to 5 degrees in the direction of the cut. (do the tracer to so they match)
This is the one I used, maybe a picture will help your search:
- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices
Very well said.
Edited by redg8r, 27 October 2009 - 10:11 PM.
Posted 28 October 2009 - 02:32 AM
Jerry, yes I understand. My table saw has the angle adjustment also.
Thanks for the link, however I do not want to order online. I would say 20 - 30% of mail does not get through. I will try to source the speed controller locally, if not available, I will build one myself. Lots of suitable circuits on the web. Just scary switching it on the first time (rubber gloves).
Posted 30 November 2009 - 11:05 AM
I thought I would bring you an update.
Regarding the poor 'steppy' finish, I have decided to use stepper motors to drive the spindles, one for each, three motors in all.
There are several advantages to this system, first off, I can get rid of the chain and sprockets, as the motors will be coordinated by electronics. This eliminates any slop, which was not a major problem, but did exist.
With the chain/sprocket system I was limited to a 2:1 ratio, giving 30 cuts per inch on a 15tpi thread. With the stepper motors, I can program in a much finer pitch, even as fine as 3000 cuts per inch. This would not be practical, as it would take 75 minutes to cut a 3" body. I have settled on 150 cuts per inch, with a time of 3.75 minutes. 150 cuts is a vast improvement on the 30 cuts per inch of the chain/sprocket setup and should give the finish that I am looking for, but still using the cheap saw cutter.
This new drive system will also eliminate the spiral effect of the cuts, as one complete cut is made, then the main screw advances 1/10th of a revolution, then the next cut is made.
I am also able to program in a slow cut (1/10th normal speed) for the first cut, as this cut removes the most material. This speed change will happen automatically.
Micro switches will automatically stop the machine at the end of a run and automatically set the direction. So it will be just a case of lowering the cutter into the stock and pressing a button to start the cycle.
The disadvantage is that 3 motors is more expense. But the main problem is designing and building the electronic circuits. Fortunately, I used to do hobby electronics many years ago, but my eyes have deteriorated considerably since those days and I keep soldering my fingers together.
I have completed all the schematic drawings (9 circuits in all) and half the strip board layouts. I have started building the circuits, but have had to spend many hours working out the bugs. I can see this is going to take at least another couple of weeks or even longer, as you have to be in the right frame of mind for this tedious stuff.
Once the prototype is done, I can get printed circuit boards made here quite cheap, so subsequent builds should go a lot smoother. Also I need to re-design the duplicator box to suit this design change.
As a spin-off of the independent motor drives, I can control the rotations of the individual stock and stylus motors and achieve a spiral effect (that I accidentally stumbled across earlier).
That is all I can think of for now.
Edited by Vodkaman, 30 November 2009 - 11:06 AM.
Posted 05 December 2009 - 10:31 AM
Great Work Dave!
No idea if this will help, but I tried searching up safety shields for ya and found these (incidentally their saw blade is rated for 11,000 rpm under load)
Posted 05 December 2009 - 03:05 PM
Safety is right up there on my list. I will be totally enclosing the business end. If I can find some thick polycarb, then great, but visibility is not required, once the thing is working. The only time the cutter will be open is for video and then I will be standing well back. The object is hands free automation, press the go button and wait for it to stop automatically.
If anyone other than myself is to operate the machine, then the shield will be micro switch protected. Pointless for my own use though. The additional circuit is already designed and easily installed.
Posted 30 June 2010 - 01:27 AM
Dave you must have made some progress by now! What stage are you up to with mark 2? Chris.
Posted 30 June 2010 - 01:37 AM
Sorry Chris, I have done absolutely nothing for months now. I have been bogged down with other stuff. Might be getting back to it soon, but cannot say when. I will report any progress.
Posted 30 October 2010 - 04:21 PM
Dave I gave up on 3d. Got any wireframe outlines of what you sent me before?
Posted 30 October 2010 - 08:14 PM
Scott, very cool machine.
Sorry the 3D did not work out. I have emailed you a DXF file, also a PDF showing the profile with a few dimensions. You can change any of the dimensions (well, I can) to what you want. Might as well make something that you want.
Posted 31 October 2010 - 03:28 AM
Got it thanks I'll try it today!
Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:15 PM
Sorry to bring up this old thread..
I would love to make this rocking beam dupicator. Can someone PM me the specs, detailed pics and blueprints and parts list? Or if anyone has any other ideas on duplicating a bass plug ( like a bagleys B2 or Bombers ) I'd like to try to build one. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:52 PM
I don't think your going to find any blueprints as that would entail liability issues. Some of these machines are quite dangerous and could cause serious injuries. Most of the guys I know that built these duplicators did so for their own use. There has been a lot of discussion about these machines and not all of them use the same procedures. It might take a good bit of searching, but I think you'll find enough info on them in the archives that you could put one together.
Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:40 AM
Thanks Ben.. I know they are dangerous.. I would mainly just like to have more pictures of his machine, and maybe some measurements. I actually have a machine drawn out on paper but want to look at others to make sure i am doing it correctly so i dont waste time and money on a redo.