.dsaavedra.

Target Coatings Orange-peeling

17 posts in this topic

i don't know why, but ever since i started using the target coatings SC9000, it has always orange peeled on me. sometimes its worse than others but i never seem to get a perfectly smooth finish. i noticed that the noses of my baits (facing up when i hang them) are usually smoother than the tails, so i figured that was because the nose has a thinner coat, so i tried dipping the baits in the polyurethane and then pulling them out real slow so not so much polyurethane was on them. still got orange peel. anybody know what is causing the orange peel and how i can prevent it?

on wikipedia it says its caused by "...improper painting technique, and is caused by the quick evaporation of thinner, incorrect spray gun setup (e.g., low air pressure or incorrect nozzle), spraying the paint at an angle other than perpendicular, or applying excessive paint." do you think this even applies to the waterbased paints i'm using? from reading the article, i think they are referring to the paint itself orange peeling due to those factors, not the clear coat.

here are two pictures of the worst case of orange peel i've experienced (when i first started painting and using the SC9000):

IMG_0175.jpg

IMG_0176.jpg

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Have you tried lightly sanding the finish and applying a second coat, and if so, do you get the orange peeling again? Have you tried brushing the top coat on? Could temperature be a factor? Are you applying the top coat in a warm environment? When I tried the 9300 I remember reading that is was designed to be sprayed on. Since spraying would give a very thin coating it could be that the thickness of the coating could be playing a role in your problem. Have you tried contacting the manufacturer?

Edited by RayburnGuy

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What is the paint under the top coat. And what reducers did you use. Looks like a non compatiblaty reaction. Try dipping a bait without the base coat on it and see what happens.

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i'm using Smiths Wildlife Colors. i dipped a plain ole factory rapala a while back and got a glass smooth finish. so maybe it is the paint. i'm dipping inside so temps are like 70 or so. the pictures you see are after 3 coats. i don't sand between coats.

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I do not use a top coat that you dip but I am guessing that the coat is thick and there lies the differance. I would bet if you sprayed it on the problem would not be near as bad. i know that spraying is a big pain but it may be the only wat to achieve the look that you are after. Strang thing that happens to water based paint you think it will all work with each other then this. As for the baits that you have already I would try to sand lightly (1000 grit) and recoat(spray). There is not a bad finish out there it is how we use it ( or abuse it) Hope this helps. Frank

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DSV, I think you are right, if the rapala worked OK then it must be the paint. I don't know if the Smiths needs heat setting, but on the Smiths web site, they did recommend the use of a hair dryer. Have a read of this: http://www.smithpaints.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=67

My guess is that the apparently dry water based paint is still not completely dry and is causing your problem. Try the hair dryer.

Dave

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DSV, I think you are right, if the rapala worked OK then it must be the paint. I don't know if the Smiths needs heat setting, but on the Smiths web site, they did recommend the use of a hair dryer. Have a read of this: http://www.smithpaints.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=67

My guess is that the apparently dry water based paint is still not completely dry and is causing your problem. Try the hair dryer.

Dave

I think Dave's probably right. I use SC9000 over Wildlife colors, and don't have that problem. But I do use the hair dryer, first on low and then on high, to heat set my paint well before I dip.

The only orange peel I ever got was when I dipped in the SC9000 the second time before the first coat was really dry. I got a wrinkling effect that actually looked kind of cool. It looked kind of like your lures, but a little more pronounced.

If the orange peel occurs between coats of urethane, you may not be waiting long enough between dips.

Now I hit the lures with a hair dryer after each dip in the urethane, before I dip them again, just to be sure the first coat is really dry. By paying attention, and heating them periodically, I can even cut the time between dips to 1 hour.

The hair dryer is your friend.

Edited by mark poulson

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i've been heat setting my paint (after the bait is fully painted) with a hair dryer, every time. maybe i'm just not doing it enough? it sure seems to me that i'm doing it enough, sometimes i think i use too much heat. i've never used the hair dryer in between coats of the SC9000, but i don't know if this would solve the problem because i'm getting orange peel on the very first coat.

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OK, the wet paint idea has been eliminated.

Are you force drying using a heat source, lamp etc? I ask because I have just been experimenting with a drying cabinet for reducing humidity for propionate curing. The heat source successfully reduced the humidity, but the heat also accelerated the solvent evapouration and left me with very slight orange peel. So my next suggestion is to make sure the bodies are at room temperature when dipping and don't use heat in the curing process. Even heat from the hair dryer process could be causing your problem. Let them cool first before dipping.

Other than that, maybe the dip is giving too thick a coating, as suggested in a previous post by RayburnGuy, but Mark had no problems dipping.

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i'm pretty sure the baits are cool when i dip them, i don't really know because i don't touch them before i dip. i will try letting them cool for a long time after heating the paint.

Mark, how quickly are you removing the baits from the can of SC9000? i figured pulling them out very slowly would put less polyurethane on them and reduce the orange peel, but it didn't really do much. the noses are still smoother than the tails.

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i'm pretty sure the baits are cool when i dip them, i don't really know because i don't touch them before i dip. i will try letting them cool for a long time after heating the paint.

Mark, how quickly are you removing the baits from the can of SC9000? i figured pulling them out very slowly would put less polyurethane on them and reduce the orange peel, but it didn't really do much. the noses are still smoother than the tails.

I dip while the parts are still warm, with no problems.

I heat set every coat of paint completely, first low and then high, not just at the end. Maybe you still have some residual water in the paint that's affecting the finish.

No specific speed, although I don't let them soak. I guess I'd say I dip them quickly.

I just put them in until they're totally covered, and pull them out. I hang them inside the jar and tip them to get as much excess as possible dripped back into the jar, and then hang them. If the finish pools in one of the joint recesses, I wick it off with a paper towel, and, as drips form on the bottom, I rub the drips on the newspaper I've spread below my drying rack for drips to remove them, and then rehang the part. I used to use a paper towel to remove the drips, and that works, too.

I usually only have to remove drips twice before they stop forming, and then I hit the part with the hair dryer, first on low, and then on high.

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I think I know the answer to the orange peeling problem. I don't know if I can solve it but I know why it happens.

I assume the SC9000 is a solvent based product from what DVS has said about the nose being good and the rest getting the peel.

As the solvents evaporate they will cascade down the side of the lure because of the cooling effect when it evaporates and the fumes are heavier than the air around the bait. The bait gets the orange peel below the nose because the solvents at the top of the bait evaporate faster. The solvents lower on the bait don't evaporate as fast because the air is full of the solvent fumes coming down the sides of the bait and this slows the evaporation. The solvents stay in contact with your paints longer and cause the orange peel on the lower part of the bait.

The way I would try and solve this is to spray 2-3 thin coats of the 9000 (you should be able to thin it with the same solvents that are in it) and let it dry for 15 min or so and then do a quick dip in the 9000. try and have something to move the air around the bait. This will keep the cascading solvent fumes from falling straight down the sides of the bait and allow the lower part of the bait to dry faster.

The sprayed topcoat will go on a lot thinner than a dipped coat and much of the solvents will evaporate when it atomizes in the air on the way to the bait. This sprayed topcoat will dry so fast that the reaction with the paints will be minimal if any. Then when you dip the lure in the 9000 (quick in and out) it will have a compatible shell over the paints to protect them from the solvents. You just want to make sure the previous coats have cured 90% or more before you dip another. This way you will not dissolve the first sprayed topcoats and get a reaction between the solvents and your paints.

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I think I know the answer to the orange peeling problem. I don't know if I can solve it but I know why it happens.

I assume the SC9000 is a solvent based product from what DVS has said about the nose being good and the rest getting the peel.

As the solvents evaporate they will cascade down the side of the lure because of the cooling effect when it evaporates and the fumes are heavier than the air around the bait. The bait gets the orange peel below the nose because the solvents at the top of the bait evaporate faster. The solvents lower on the bait don't evaporate as fast because the air is full of the solvent fumes coming down the sides of the bait and this slows the evaporation. The solvents stay in contact with your paints longer and cause the orange peel on the lower part of the bait.

The way I would try and solve this is to spray 2-3 thin coats of the 9000 (you should be able to thin it with the same solvents that are in it) and let it dry for 15 min or so and then do a quick dip in the 9000. try and have something to move the air around the bait. This will keep the cascading solvent fumes from falling straight down the sides of the bait and allow the lower part of the bait to dry faster.

The sprayed topcoat will go on a lot thinner than a dipped coat and much of the solvents will evaporate when it atomizes in the air on the way to the bait. This sprayed topcoat will dry so fast that the reaction with the paints will be minimal if any. Then when you dip the lure in the 9000 (quick in and out) it will have a compatible shell over the paints to protect them from the solvents. You just want to make sure the previous coats have cured 90% or more before you dip another. This way you will not dissolve the first sprayed topcoats and get a reaction between the solvents and your paints.

PB,

SC9000 is a waterborne urethane. I don't think it has active solvents that would do what you're describing.

I really think the problem is trapped moisture in uncured coats of paint.

I would dry every coat as it's applied, including the primer after it's flashed off, and see if this doesn't cure the problem.

Otherwise, I'm stumped. I've only had an orange peel problem once, and that was on the second dip, because I didn't wait the full two hours, and hadn't yet figured out you can heat set the uretane between dips to accelerate the process.

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I had a long discussion just last week with a man who has been painting for 20 yrs., not only as a hobbyist put also as a profession. he told me that the reason u get orange peel on any type of top coat is directly related to the paint that is underneath. so it sounds to me that the problem is not so much what or how your applying the clear, but what is the condition of the paint. i would have to agree with Mark and say try drying between every coat of paint. and again agree that if that doesnt work, i too am stumped.

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I had a long discussion just last week with a man who has been painting for 20 yrs., not only as a hobbyist put also as a profession. he told me that the reason u get orange peel on any type of top coat is directly related to the paint that is underneath. so it sounds to me that the problem is not so much what or how your applying the clear, but what is the condition of the paint. i would have to agree with Mark and say try drying between every coat of paint. and again agree that if that doesnt work, i too am stumped.

fivefishwish,

Glad I'm not the only one. Seems like the older it get, the stumpter I get. :lol:

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I have seen this happen a lot with Propionate and to a lesser extent Epoxy - I think it is a surface tension issue, where the coating is flowing away from the nose where there is also a concave curve (if hung by the nose) giving a near perfect coat as it is stretched and dries, the excess runoff then pools towards the rear - the coating flowing down the lure reactivates (wetting) this lower coating which is beginning to dry, so you get this ripple effect. What is giving it away for me is that all the upper curves are smooth, which indicates the coating is running away from these surfaces and 'over coating' or dragging the coating lower down the lure.

I would try putting it on a drying wheel so the coating tends to stay where it is put and try not to heat too much – the wheel should spin at 6 rpm or faster – For what it's worth with epoxy, I'm up to 20Rpm now and runs /pooling on the flat sides is virtually non existent.

I know these things drive you crazy but hang in there.Pete

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i'm using Smiths Wildlife Colors. i dipped a plain ole factory rapala a while back and got a glass smooth finish. so maybe it is the paint. i'm dipping inside so temps are like 70 or so. the pictures you see are after 3 coats. i don't sand between coats.

I assume you dipped the Rapala that had a factory clear coat? This would explain why you got a great finish. I believe the the clear your using is just highlighting the natural orange peel affect we all get when painting a bait. IMO if you add a spray on clear barrier between your paint and clear coat you will be fine. I use U-POl #1 clear on every bait I paint. Basically is smooths out the surface and your clear coat will flow better. I would put it on a drying wheel after dipping.

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