Kris

Help - What's Happening Here With Dn ?

25 posts in this topic

Any help on what is happening here with Dick Nite clear coat? I have had this happen on most baits I tried it on. It seems I have only had a 2-3 baits come out clean when I use Dick Nite's.

I brush it on. I have tried just hanging it to dry and turning it on a wheel.

I have ruined too many baits ... need advice.

I have also had DN actually remove the paint from the bait while applying it. Use Polytranspar, Wildlife and Createx. And I heat set every color that is applied.

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Kris, Are you using a primer before painting? What is it? How thick and how quickly are you brushing it? Are you heat setting your paint before the DN?

DN doesn't play well with some primers and its solvent is pretty active stuff that evaporates fast but will wrinkle paint if it remains wet too long on a crankbait. I don't brush DN but my impression is those who do apply it quickly with a fine brush in multiple thin coats over heat set acrylic paint. You don't want to over work it because that can keep the DN wet too long on the paint surface.

I dip baits over exactly the same acrylic paints (heat set) that you do and hang them to dry. No problems.

Edited by BobP

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Kris, Are you using a primer before painting? What is it? How thick and how quickly are you brushing it? Are you heat setting your paint before the DN?

DN doesn't play well with some primers and its solvent is pretty active stuff that evaporates fast but will wrinkle paint if it remains wet too long on a crankbait. I don't brush DN but my impression is those who do apply it quickly with a fine brush in multiple thin coats over heat set acrylic paint. You don't want to over work it because that can keep the DN wet too long on the paint surface.

I dip baits over exactly the same acrylic paints (heat set) that you do and hang them to dry. No problems.

BobP, Some of the lures that I have had problems with I did prime. The lure in the pic was not primed. I think you hit on the problem ... I may be over working it. Which I used to doing with D2T to get a good smooth coat.

I make one pass of the brush and will then go over the same spot again. Which as you said is keeping the DN wet too long. With D2T I usually will make 1 or 2 several passes to make sure I get a smooth even coat.

If I remember correctly I made only one made only pass of the brush on most of this lure except where the wrinkling occurred.

Thanks for the help.

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I would try applying less DN on each coat. Keeping the bait wet by re-brushing the same area will most likely cause the finish to dry faster. By constantly brushing the finish you are re-flowing the skin on the finish wich allows the solvents to evaporate faster. The amount of solvent within the finish doesn't increase or dry slower because of repeated brushing.

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Kris,

A couple of my observations I had while using a similar product, I have experienced the paint cracking exactly what happened to you both dipping and brushing. For mine you could actually watch the paint cracking as the topcoat soaked through. The damage was done within a minute of pulling out of the dipping jar.

Be careful how you use the Primer. I'm not saying to find a different primer, just do a couple of tests. You might waste a bait but you will learn lots. I was having a similar issue when using a clear primer available here, I recon the real issue was because I rushed and not so much the primer. When the cracking occurred I was really dissapointed becuase I thought my clear primer was no good, what it turned out to be was that the primer was not correctly dried, that is, I rushed to get the bait painted and didnt "flash off" the primer properly. I did some tested with air dried primer and hair dryer dried primer, bait was primed and then one hour later I applied the paint and topcoat. The baits with the primer that were air dried cracked like yours, the baits with the primer that was hair dryed were fine. I am sure that some primers may not be compatible, but I always ensure the primer is good and dry now.

2. I am using Createx to paint, if it is not heat set properly I think you will run into problems aswell. I used to think heat setting meant running the hair dryer over the bait for 10s, now I will run it over the bait for a couple of minutes to ensure it is good and set. Maybe its overkill, but it has solved my issues so am sticking with it.

Anyway, just my observations from similar experience, hopefully they can assist you. If you fix the problem a different way would be good to know.

Angus

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I've had more than my share of problems with Dick Nite, which is why I don't use it anymore. When I was using it I found that spraying the paint first with Krylon Workable Fixative cured most of the problems I had. Dick Nite is super hard, but super fussy stuff. Too much work for me.

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I am planning on ordering DN top coat for spinner blades and spoons, also using createx. Any tips you guys can offer up. What are you guys refering to as heat setting?

Thanks.

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I have not used any moisture cure for a while but when I did I found the same problems when I painted it over w/b acrylics. The cure for mine, like 'Mags' and KC say, use a sealer before finishing with D.N - I used a spray can of 'Pastel' fixative, OR sprayed a seal coat of Propionate AND let it all set before finish coating and no problems from then on.Pete

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I am planning on ordering DN top coat for spinner blades and spoons, also using createx. Any tips you guys can offer up. What are you guys refering to as heat setting?

Thanks.

Phish,

I and others have written a ton on Heat-setting Createx. Do a search on Heat-setting Createx. You will find a lot of info. Heat setting Createx with hair dryer causes molecular crosslinking which transforms the paint from something which can be removed with a damp paper towel into a paint that will withstand the solvent in Dicknite's topcoat. By heating a T-Shirt painted with Createx Airbrush paint, it becomes washable, which pleases many custom T-shirt painters and their clients!

Kris,

I know of a couple of people who have run into compatibility issues between Polytranspar and Dicknite's topcoat. If you use nothing but Createx or Parma, thorough heat-setting prevents wrinkling without fail.

Dean

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I use several different acrylics and have had some problems with DN wrinkling and in some cases removing the paint completely. I now finish with Createx clear and heat set it before dipping in DN and it works great.

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I just dip some Dick nites. Took the silver paint off one bait. Paint ran on two other baits. The Black and red paint ran the most. I use mostly testers acrylic paint. I don't have any problems with 30 min epoxy. I will try drying the baits before dipping. I hope I can get it to work because the finish looks great.

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I use several different acrylics and have had some problems with DN wrinkling and in some cases removing the paint completely. I now finish with Createx clear and heat set it before dipping in DN and it works great.

bobv, which Createx clear do you clear with before DN? The Gloss or the Matte? I'm guessing either would work ... just thought I would check first b4 I buy.

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If heat setting a balsa bait sprayed with createx how do you keep the heat

from causing bumps and pimples from escaping air in your bait ?

Edited by Lurehead03

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Lurehead, the trick with balsa is to have a durable waterproof undercoating on the bait before you start painting. No air can then escape from the bait when heat drying the paint. I use epoxy or multiple coats of propionate. That makes for a nice smooth bait surface - and it's more durable too.

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i understand about sealing and having your bait primed but i just don't see how you can heat set

on a wood bait because of moisture ie steam escaping

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i understand about sealing and having your bait primed but i just don't see how you can heat set

on a wood bait because of moisture ie steam escaping

Just like BobP said

Lurehead, the trick with balsa is to have a durable waterproof undercoating on the bait before you start painting. No air can then escape from the bait when heat drying the paint. I use epoxy or multiple coats of propionate. That makes for a nice smooth bait surface - and it's more durable too.

I do the same thing, and have been doing it for several years now. In my case, I use epoxy. Go to the Hard Baits Gallery and look at my lures or Bob's lures...all of my lures are sealed with epoxy undercoats, painted with Createx or Parma airbrush colors, thoroughly heatset for several minutes using a hairdryer or a heat gun on low, and then cleared with a minimum of 3 coats of Dicknite's Topcoat applied with a brush..

If you will glue in your ballast with epoxy (avoid using waterbased wood fillers), and then seal your lures like I do or BobP does, you will not have bubbles caused by air escaping from your wood.

If your Createx or Parma comes off or wrinkles when you apply DN, then your paint was not properly heat set. Every lure I've built in the last few years has undergone the above process without any problems whatsoever. Several other builders I know use this same simple process without any problems, and build beautiful, durable, blemish-free lures. None of them are rocket scientists, unless they've been fooling me.

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Lurehead, I put a tough undercoat on every wood bait, not just on balsa. Any crankbait wood species will do the same thing. Maybe I'm not as religious as Dean about heat setting to crosslink acrylic paint. I hit every paint shot with a hair dryer so I don't have to wait between colors and so I can see what it will look like when dry. I don't blast them with lots of heat for extended periods - certainly not the high heat recommended to set Createx paint into T-shirts. But it is enough to cause bubbles under the paint on wood - unless prevented. Everyone develops a build routine based on his own experience of "what works". If you don't want to speed dry or heat set paint and are happy with your end product, no worries. I just believe a tough undercoat and heat drying paint make for a more durable crankbait that looks better too. If I were production building 100 a day, I'd sure find another way to do things - but fortunately I'm not!

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I read somewhere that some professional painters actually bake their paint jobs. Don't know how this works and I would be very fearful of putting one of my baits in an oven.

I agree with the experts on here that it is a very smart idea to heat set your paint with a hair dryer after every coat .

The wrinkling on the bait in question looks more like a compatability issue than anything else. I have gotten this reaction on ocassion when using clear lacquer as a topcoat. It is a crapshoot in my opinion when clearing with a solvent based product over water based paint. You might find the magic formula but then again you might ruin several baits before you do.

With all the problems I have had in the past with wrinkling paint I only use SC9000 or 2ton epoxy now as topcoats.

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I read somewhere that some professional painters actually bake their paint jobs. Don't know how this works and I would be very fearful of putting one of my baits in an oven.

I agree with the experts on here that it is a very smart idea to heat set your paint with a hair dryer after every coat .

The wrinkling on the bait in question looks more like a compatability issue than anything else. I have gotten this reaction on ocassion when using clear lacquer as a topcoat. It is a crapshoot in my opinion when clearing with a solvent based product over water based paint. You might find the magic formula but then again you might ruin several baits before you do.

With all the problems I have had in the past with wrinkling paint I only use SC9000 or 2ton epoxy now as topcoats.

In our factory in China once one stencils there color on the bait they hang it up it moves through a small oven then to the next person who stencils it another color and through an oven and so forth. Basically its person/oven/person/oven/person etc.... we heat seal after every stencil all the way down the chain.

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bobv, which Createx clear do you clear with before DN? The Gloss or the Matte? I'm guessing either would work ... just thought I would check first b4 I buy.

I use the gloss, and heat set with a heat gun on low.

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Fishhunter, it's interesting to hear about some of the processes and materials used in factory production crankbaits. Thanks!

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I read somewhere that some professional painters actually bake their paint jobs. Don't know how this works and I would be very fearful of putting one of my baits in an oven.

I agree with the experts on here that it is a very smart idea to heat set your paint with a hair dryer after every coat .

The wrinkling on the bait in question looks more like a compatability issue than anything else. I have gotten this reaction on ocassion when using clear lacquer as a topcoat. It is a crapshoot in my opinion when clearing with a solvent based product over water based paint. You might find the magic formula but then again you might ruin several baits before you do.

With all the problems I have had in the past with wrinkling paint I only use SC9000 or 2ton epoxy now as topcoats.

It is not a crapshoot as long as you're using Createx or Parma, with Dicknite's Topcoat, which contains solvent, and the paint is heat-set thoroughly. When you start mixing in other brands of paint, some of whom may not heat-setting properties, then you're crapshooting. A good rule of thumb is that, if it is a waterbase acrylic (not all acrylics are waterbase), that is commonly used, or listed as can be used, for T-shirt painting, then it can be heat-set.

There are a lot of enamels which are traditionally baked on for durability during manufacturing, but those are a horse (or a lure) of a different color.

BTW, I know one person who uses Component System's Seal Coat as an in-between coating before using Dicknite's on a paint that isn't Createx or Parma. I'm guessing it would work as the same over foil, which needs an in-between coat before using DN, I just haven't tried it yet...

Dean

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I use DN over Createx almost exclusively, both brushed on and dipped, and have never had a problem with the paint wrinkling or coming off. I heat set thoroughly after every coat of paint. If you think about it water is a solvent to water based paints if they haven't been cured.

RG

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I heat set my lure for the first time yesterday after every coat using the hairdryer. On the final coat I held the dryer on it for 4 minutes and when I glanced down the paint had a big crack in it.....I'm am guessing there is an extent to heat setting? I think I over did it ...owell thats how you learn

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I heat set my lure for the first time yesterday after every coat using the hairdryer. On the final coat I held the dryer on it for 4 minutes and when I glanced down the paint had a big crack in it.....I'm am guessing there is an extent to heat setting? I think I over did it ...owell thats how you learn

Some woods are a little more prone to that than others, and it depends on moisture content also. One way to eliminate that happening is to seal the lure with a coat of epoxy, which is what I do to every lure I make. After sealing, I'll lightly scuff the coat, and remove any residue with soap and water, as my lure at that point is totally sealed except for my lip slot on cranks where I'm careful not to get that wet. Then paint as usual, and you shouldn't have to worry about too much heat as long as you keep the hair dryer moving slowly.

On wood I think may be a tad heavy on the moisture content, I'll microwave my lure blanks to remove some of the moisture, just a little at a time, feeling my way along.

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