RayburnGuy

Storing Dn

22 posts in this topic

Has anyone ever tried storing DN in a vacuum? Got to thinking about the vacuum sealers you see advertised on television and was wondering if this would work with storing DN. Believe there are even hand operated vacuum pumps that are sold for this purpose although I'm not sure how well they work. I'm thinking about trying this and was hoping to get some input on the idea before I waste $50 on a quart of Dick's top coat.

RG

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I don't know if it would work. Most of the sealers I have used suck the air out of the package, I think it would also suck the liquid up and make a mess. I wish (DN) would come in a container with a screw on lid or a side pour out spout that you could seal.

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From an engineering point of view I would say it would partially work at best. Not sure if it is moisture or oxygen you have to prevent, but either way, those machines are not providing you with a full vacuum, only a few inches of mercury at best.

Bloxygen or a heavy inert gasses like argon are completely protecting the surface from contact with lighter gasses like oxygen. Opinion only.

Dave

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From an engineering point of view I would say it would partially work at best. Not sure if it is moisture or oxygen you have to prevent, but either way, those machines are not providing you with a full vacuum, only a few inches of mercury at best.

Bloxygen or a heavy inert gasses like argon are completely protecting the surface from contact with lighter gasses like oxygen. Opinion only.

Dave

I know there are some solvent proof plastics, would getting a plastic container that you can squeeze the air out of after using help?

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I know there are some solvent proof plastics, would getting a plastic container that you can squeeze the air out of after using help?

Here I found one. they use these in photography chemicals. the oxygen breakdown their chemicals or something. I guess the question would be, is it solvent safe?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/318712-REG/Kaiser_204198_Accordion_Storage_Bottle_.html

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From an engineering point of view I would say it would partially work at best. Not sure if it is moisture or oxygen you have to prevent, but either way, those machines are not providing you with a full vacuum, only a few inches of mercury at best.

Bloxygen or a heavy inert gasses like argon are completely protecting the surface from contact with lighter gasses like oxygen. Opinion only.

Dave

It being a "moisture cure polyurethane" I would say it was the moisture in the air that starts the curing process. Just my best guess. Don't have any proof to back that up.

What about the vacuum pumps that are used to dry out auto air conditioning systems prior to filling with refrigerant? Seems like they pull something like 25 inches of mercury.

Just trying to find a cheaper way of storing my DN. Bloxygen, at $9.95 a can plus shipping, can get a bit expensive.

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The squeezy bottle idea sounds good, but would have to be tested for reaction before committing.

If I was able to get my hands on a moisture cure product, I would be thinking on the lines of making some kind of syringe container, possibly using pvc pipe, commonly used for plumbing.

Decanting into smaller storage containers/bottles is a very easy way of managing these sensitive products. Lots of TU members use this method.

A full vacuum would work, but could be dangerous. I would not try it with a glass container. Metal or plastic containers would collapse under atmosphere pressure, so I don't think that this would be a good solution. But I guess it has to be tried. If you already have a pump capable of 25 inches of mercury, why not.

Dave

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I would agree with Dave's comment, very risky with the potential to collapse whatever is storing the DN solution. With anything like a syringe I would also be conerned about the product drying in the cap and creating issue, but I dont know cause never tried it.

Have you looked at heavy inert gas options instead of bloxygen? Here in Aus I can get a welding cylinder of Argon for under the cost of two can's bloxygen (when it was available in Aus), I cant remember the capacity but would think the welding cylinder has significantly more capacity then two can's bloxygen. It should be readily available too, if it is in Aus I would be floored if not same in USA.

Just my opinion.

Angus

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Angus,

I bet argon gas would do the trick. Bloxygen is argon and nitrogen gas.

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This problem has been discussed for years, I always thought a wine cask bag might work but have never tried it, DuPont or someone makes a collapsible 'Paint Pot' for car type paints which sounded promising, but you have to buy a 100 - then all of a sudden out of the blue along comes 'Atrophius' and the :

Kaiser Accordion Storage Bottle

How good is that, I reckon that would work, just press it down to exclude the air and recap, love it - I also like Angus's Argon gas, but I don't weld and would cost a fortune to hire a cylinder here.

Check this out on 'Woodwork forums', especially the last post - where you can find all sorts of solutions to glues/ coatings etc (like here). Pete

http://www.woodworkforums.com/archive/index.php/t-109116.html

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Maybe I should have been a little clearer. I'm not having a problem with storing the DN that's held in reserve. The problem is with the container that is used for dipping. I already use the Bloxygen to keep the DN in the dipping jar fresh. The only problem is the cost of the Bloxygen. Having a background in welding and fabrication I've already checked into buying a cylinder of Argon. The cost of the cylinder was way more than the actual gas. The cylinder was over $130 while it only cost about $37 to fill it. This may end up being the best way to go as I've already spent about a third of that amount buying Bloxygen. Another good thing about buying a cylinder of Argon would be that you would have a gauge and regulator on the cylinder and would be able to see when you were running out.

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Maybe I should have been a little clearer. I'm not having a problem with storing the DN that's held in reserve. The problem is with the container that is used for dipping. I already use the Bloxygen to keep the DN in the dipping jar fresh. The only problem is the cost of the Bloxygen. Having a background in welding and fabrication I've already checked into buying a cylinder of Argon. The cost of the cylinder was way more than the actual gas. The cylinder was over $130 while it only cost about $37 to fill it. This may end up being the best way to go as I've already spent about a third of that amount buying Bloxygen. Another good thing about buying a cylinder of Argon would be that you would have a gauge and regulator on the cylinder and would be able to see when you were running out.

Not sure how effective against moisture this is, but CO2 is apparently heavier then air. I know you can get little CO2 cartridges that work in seltzer bottles.

^ that will show you an experiment that will show how heavy co2 is.

I looked around for a seltzer bottle some and the cheapest i could find was around $49. I imagine you could get one on ebay or something. Just what i have looked up, i have no idea if it will work like argon, but it should settle on the surface of DN.

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Pete,

check gasweld for the cylinders of welding Argon, I've posted the link before. You can get the cylinder and the argon it contains for just under $40 at normal price, even cheaper on sale. Then you just need the regulator which is a one off purchase. I dont know how long the cylinder will last as I am still on my first.

RayburnGuy,

Understand exactly where you are coming from. Originally I looked into the bloxygen, however, it was going to cost me more than I was willing to pay for just one can like yourself. I tried plenty of gas places and it was the same story, hire a bottle and refill as required. Eventually found small cylinders at a local tool shop which are throw aways, they are cheap and full of argon. I dont know how long they last yet though so only time will tell whether it is the cheapest option. Hope you sort it out.

Angus

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Not sure how effective against moisture this is, but CO2 is apparently heavier then air. I know you can get little CO2 cartridges that work in seltzer bottles.

^ that will show you an experiment that will show how heavy co2 is.

I looked around for a seltzer bottle some and the cheapest i could find was around $49. I imagine you could get one on ebay or something. Just what i have looked up, i have no idea if it will work like argon, but it should settle on the surface of DN.

CO2 is actually heavier than Argon as well as air. But again you have the hassle of either purchasing or renting cylinders. Nitrous Oxide is another gas that is heavier than air (about the same as CO2) and one that I know comes in smaller cylinders. Any dry gas that is heavier than moisture laden air will most likely work. The thought I had about storing DN in a vacuum was to hopefully do away with having to use gases entirely. If this was possible you could just seal the dipping jar, flip a switch to pull the vacuum and that would be it. I'm just not 100% sure how much moisture would be left in a vacuum. May have to give the "accordion" bottle a try before I do anything else. More to come. Stay tuned. B)

By the way, if anyone is interested in the specific gravity of gases click on the link below.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-gravities-gases-d_334.html

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Thanks for the link RayburnGuy, very interesting information. Can't believe I didn't look for it myself.

I thought the butane looked promising, with a specific gravity (sg) of 2.0061 compared with argon sg of 1.38 (sg of air = 1.0000). Butane is very cheap, readily available in small cannisters, easily administered from a blow torch or even a simple lighter.

I believe this could be worth a trial in a small jar. Say half inch of DN in each of two jars. Open daily and protect one with butane each time.

I would gladly do the test for you, but I do not have access to DN living in Indonesia. I have had my neck stomped on in the past for suggesting testing to be done by others, please do not do it again, I am just trying to help.

Dave

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Thanks for the link RayburnGuy, very interesting information. Can't believe I didn't look for it myself.

I thought the butane looked promising, with a specific gravity (sg) of 2.0061 compared with argon sg of 1.38 (sg of air = 1.0000). Butane is very cheap, readily available in small cannisters, easily administered from a blow torch or even a simple lighter.

I believe this could be worth a trial in a small jar. Say half inch of DN in each of two jars. Open daily and protect one with butane each time.

I would gladly do the test for you, but I do not have access to DN living in Indonesia. I have had my neck stomped on in the past for suggesting testing to be done by others, please do not do it again, I am just trying to help.

Dave

Hey Dave,

My pleasure on the link. And I would never stomp on your neck. Might throw peanuts or Life Savers at you, but never stomp on your neck. :P

As far as the butane I'm a little leery of anything flammable. I don't smoke, but I do have open flame heaters in the house. Not that it would be an issue now as it is starting to get quite warm here in Texas. (already running the a/c) That's one reason I was thinking about the Nitrous Oxide. It also comes in small containers and is readily available although I'm not sure of the cost. And I don't think it is flammable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it just enhance combustion while not being flammable itself?

I've also sent an inquiry to the folks advertising the accordion bottle to see what the dimensions of the opening in the bottle are. If the opening isn't large enough for a bait to pass through then it is of no use to me as it's intended use would be that of a dipping jar.

Anyway, this is something that I will continue to think about. Thanks for your input.

Ben

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I find it odd that Dick Nite himself isn't actively looking for a solution to the storage problem.

I have given up on DN for the time being because I got tired of losing so much of it. I was able to use maybe 20% of what I purchased.

It is a good coating but dealing with the storage is a major hassle.

Jed

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Guys, if you put the DN in a mason jar and use bloxygen everytime you open it, you will not have any problems. I have been doing this for a year now and have not had any problems...

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Guys, if you put the DN in a mason jar and use bloxygen everytime you open it, you will not have any problems. I have been doing this for a year now and have not had any problems...

Using Bloxygen was what I was trying to get away from Brshpile. At close to $10, not including shipping, it can get a bit expensive. If you knew what you were paying per cubic foot for Bloxygen as opposed to what Argon costs at a welding supply you would probably burst a blood vessel. Enough Argon to fill a cylinder that's 5 feet tall only costs $37 at my local welding supply. And that's at a couple thousand psi. The drawback to using these cylinders is the added cost of either purchasing or renting the cylinder plus the cost of buying a regulator.

Edited by RayburnGuy

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Using Bloxygen was what I was trying to get away from Brshpile. At close to $10, not including shipping, it can get a bit expensive. If you knew what you were paying per cubic foot for Bloxygen as opposed to what Argon costs at a welding supply you would probably burst a blood vessel. Enough Argon to fill a cylinder that's 5 feet tall only costs $37 at my local welding supply. And that's at a couple thousand psi. The drawback to using these cylinders is the added cost of either purchasing or renting the cylinder plus the cost of buying a regulator.

I understand the expense of it. That is one of the reasons that I only dip when I have around 50 or so baits to dip. I just save the work up until that time. Thus conserving the opening of the jar. Also, when i purge the jar i only use a little bit of it. The only thing that stinks about the bloxygen is you cannot tell when it is empty. Anyhow, I hope you find another solution, it would be nice.

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