diemai

Two New Experimental Lures

40 posts in this topic

Hi , folks ,

I'd like to put up two new experimental lures , that I've been working on during the past days , ....still under construction , though !

Would be glad about any opinions , comments or advice !

First lure is a crankbait with shifting internal weights to improve it's casting performance , made this one after some input by LaPala .

After having readily shaped the blank from PVC I had put it into a waterbucket and it's two floating levels with the internal weights shifted into their two different positions looked promising .

I have glued in the wire harness and lip , inserted the weights and glued in the PVC plug to close the bore at the rear end just now .

After trimming the excess glue and cutting and sanding the closure plug flush , I would surely find out , whether I could finally balance it to perform well :? .

One more thing :

On my sketch of that bait the rear extension does not show the closure plug of the weights bore ,..........it should be left there at first , when cutting out the outline of the plug from PVC board .

Its purpose is simply to maintain a plane 90° surface for the drill bit to engage , as on an angled surface the bit would wander and slide away , which would lead to inaccurate or even messed up work !

After the weights bore is accomplished , this extension can be cut off and worked flush to the blank's outline !

The second bait is a design , that I had on my mind for a long time , .........never got started with it , because I did not believe any wood to be sufficiently buoyant for the purpose , ........and I did not want to use balsa , though !

But now the PVC , that I've obained recently , seems just to be perfect for the purpose .

It is a 105 mm plug(approx. 4 1/4") having it's hooks mounted on it's back , not hanging under the belly and down the tail as on a common crankbait .

This way I intend to avoid bottom snagging of that lure , ...........if it should turn out well , I 'm gonna cast it into my favourite water with clay , mud and mussel covered bottom , up to 45 feet deep .

I wanna balance this lure to be sinking at about 1 foot per second or little faster and when finally descended to bottom possibly stand on it's lip with the tail lifted somewhat upward , so I can retrieve it rather more like a leadhead jig in a rip-and-pause manner or slowly plough it through the bottom sediments .

The open shank double hooks are held in place by clipping their shanks onto a wire eye ,....... I guess , that I am gonna file some grooves sideward into these eyes to accommodate the hook shank wire , ........but I have also just glued in the harness today , need to trim glue overflow as well , ........maybe tomorrow ?

In addition I could also glue some magnetic foil into small grooves to be cut inbetween the wire eyes on the back of the bait , ...these would surely improve the hooks to sit more firmly(only to come off position with a fish on for less hook leverage) , ..........but I don't know , whether such magnetic foil would rust ?

Covering it with too much topcoat might minor it's magnetic force though ?

Biggest issue about that foil is its weight ,....... I want as little weight as possible on the back of the lure !

Never glued in the lip , as I absolutely have no idea about how that lure would swim(if at all :? ) ,...... probably I would still have to alter the lips shape , ...or even make it of sheet metal for added weight at the belly side ?

Only thing is that I want the lip to have a straight edge at it's tip , so that it can stand on the bottom to keep the bait upright !

Anyway , gonna proceed with these baits during the coming days and weeks(amongst other lures) , I will keep you informed !

greetz , diemai :yay:

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Edited by diemai

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Those look awsome! I like the one with the hooks on top, only suggestion would be to remove the second loop that the hook aligns with and use a strong magnet instead. Nice work!

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I really like the idea of the hooks on top.Plus the bait being nose down on the bottom of the lake like a feeding fish.Good luck hope it works out well.Put me on the list to buy one when your done.

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I like the design ,but I think the weight of the hooks plus the wire above the center of balance may give you some problems. It dosnt take alot of weight to get a bait to tip and blow out if the weight is on top of the spine of the bait. Not to sure of the action your looking for but im very interested of the outcome. I add weight to some of my baits in the spine of the bait to give a desired action but too much will give you headaches. I hope this bait works out for you and keep me posted. :yay:

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First lure is a crankbait with shifting internal weights to improve it's casting performance , made this one after some input by LaPala .

After having readily shaped the blank from PVC I had put it into a waterbucket and it's two floating levels with the internal weights shifted into their two different positions looked promising .

I have glued in the wire harness and lip , inserted the weights and glued in the PVC plug to close the bore at the rear end just now .

After trimming the excess glue and cutting and sanding the closure plug flush , I would surely find out , whether I could finally balance it to perform well :? .

One more thing :

On my sketch of that bait the rear extension does not show the closure plug of the weights bore ,..........it should be left there at first , when cutting out the outline of the plug from PVC board .

Its purpose is simply to maintain a plane 90° surface for the drill bit to engage , as on an angled surface the bit would wander and slide away , which would lead to inaccurate or even messed up work !

After the weights bore is accomplished , this extension can be cut off and worked flush to the blank's outline !

...............

Gonna proceed with these baits during the coming days and weeks(amongst other lures) , I will keep you informed !

greetz , diemai :yay:

Ingenious!!!! IMHO you WANT the hooks to turn the lure over! If the hook side is painted white = belly it will behave like a dieing fish. Cast out and white is on top and black on bottom. Weight of hooks slowly turn lure over and you wind it in and the lip turns the lure right side up. Stop and the lure turns back belly up like a dying prey fish. Way to go. Keep us posted on results.

Good luck!

John

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Great stuff again Diemai. I had thrown around that idea as well for a moving ballast. I had a thought of inserting some tube into the body that went from the tail to the belly of the crankbait. That way the weight would slide to tail to cast, and come to the belly once the lip dug in on retrieval. The hooks on top though, that looks wicked. I think it should work pretty good.(from my humble opinion that is not as experienced as you :) ). Have you ever played around with steel shot for ballast btw? I was thinking that would work good for a sliding ballast as well. just not sure how much more the lead had weight/density wise vs. steel shot.

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I read back through your post again and got to thinking, I think mark poulson made a flounder bait with hooks that came out of the back. I think his where fixed into the body some how. Rigged right you may not have to have them seperate off the body when a fish hits it. Maybe just angle the head of the hook into the body? Dunno, just throwing some stuff out there. I think its a good idea, many soft baits have a hook coming right out of the bait, dont see why a hard bait could not if the force is in line with the pull of the eye.

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I read back through your post again and got to thinking, I think mark poulson made a flounder bait with hooks that came out of the back. I think his where fixed into the body some how. Rigged right you may not have to have them seperate off the body when a fish hits it. Maybe just angle the head of the hook into the body? Dunno, just throwing some stuff out there. I think its a good idea, many soft baits have a hook coming right out of the bait, dont see why a hard bait could not if the force is in line with the pull of the eye.

Atrophius,

I think you have me confused with a real lure maker, John Hopkins. :lol: I'm flattered. The flounder, if I remember correctly, was his lure.

Dieter,

Once again, the great mind is at work! :worship:

I think Jamie is right about the weight of the hooks on the back. It doesn't take much to make a lure roll over.

At a minimum, I'd go to a lighter hook.

If I were making that lure, I think I'd try and figure a way to use single hooks that were embedded in the PVC, with a short anchor wire in the eye for reinforcement. Like the Storm Swim Shad. Or smaller trebles, held in with long screw eyes that ran parallel to the sliding weight hole.

I would also not try to use the sliding casting weight alone for ballast. That is a great idea to aid in casting, but I don't think you can add enought weight low enough with that scheme alone.

I would put part of whatever ballast weight I needed right behind the bill and as close as possible to the belly of the lure, just in front of where a conventional hook hanger would normally go, and just use the sliding weight to augment the ballast, not provide all of the weight needed.

You're a brave soul to make this beauty a sinking lure. I rely on the floation of a crank to give me the courage to fish it in snaggy stuff, knowing I can stop my retrieve and the lure will float up and back itself out of most snags.

For a crank running down to 45', in the past I have just used a small, shallow diver on a Carolina rig, so it is still buoyant.

I fish it like you do that floating swimbait, so there's ballast in front of the lure keeping it down deep. The lure only hits the bottom when I pull on it, which engages the diving action of the bill, and it backs back up off the bottom when I pause.

Edited by mark poulson

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Ah yeah, your right John hopkins, I could not think of his name for the life of me while writing that. Everyone is a john hopkins to me though when it comes to making lures lol :lol:

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Thank you very much for your comments and advice , folks , ........I do appreciate it very much :worship: !

By now I have removed all excess glue on this two lures and gonna give them a first bath tub test today , ..........and I still glued in two little patches of magnetic foil to hold the hooks better on that "hooks-up" model .

Mark and Jamie , ........I can hear your concerns about weight placed into the back of a crankbait , this is why I never put this idea of sucha lure to practice with wood material .

But this PVC stuff is so incredibly buoyant , that I believe to be able to place enough keel weight into the deeply curved belly to overcome the problem , .........it's just a try , let's see what happens ;):D !

Mark , on the other lure I do not rely on the two shifting weights alone , on one picture there is a narrow stripe of lead sheet , that I have glued in together with the harness right behind the belly hookhanger .

I was aware right from the start , that these two internal weights would not be enough to balance that highly buoyant lure blank , even with an internal air pouch now !

After having carved the closure plug to close the weight bore from the rear I had put the lure into a waterbucket , .........my concerns are not about the swimming position with weights shifted forward behind the bill(it hung quite allright approx. 30° head down and upright that way) but with the weights sitting at the rear end od the bore , the "after casting" position , so to speak !

This way the lure swam almost level about 45° capsized , as the weights sit closer to it's rear back this way , ...........this is why I have glued in that lead stripe later to get a bit more keel weight to the rear , .........a little capsized swimming position won't matter at this stage , ......but if too much , the lure might turn over and blow out instead of the lip tracking the lure straight downward to have the weights slide into forward position , once the retrieve is commenced .

I did this first swim test with the harness only stuck in and without hooks , so thinks might still change to my favour , ....it was just to get a first idea !

BTW , ......the "Hooks-Up" lure swam flat on it's side with glued in harness and hooks and lip attached , no signs about turning over to a back down position , .......this is why I decided to still glue in the small magnets , ............gonna keep you informed !

@ atrophius

I haven't bothered about steel shot for ballast so far as these are quite a bit ligther in weight compared to lead , ...........and especially this very buoyant PVC requires a lot of ballast as it seems .

But if you want a bait to have rattle chambers , steel shot is the way to go , ..... due to it's hard surface it provides a much more pronounced sound as lead shot would do , ..........and it also won't loose its shape , like the soft lead might probably do .

A friend on a German site has advised me not to use these curtain weight lead slugs , but small lead balls instead ,....... also to insert a plastic lining into the weights bore(thought about a thicker drinking straw) , as after frequent use the lead slugs sliding up and down their bore might "sand off" PVC material to have the weights finally break through the surface ?!?

I had considered about such as well , but did not have sufficient material at hand , ......and I could not wait anymore , .......maybe next time :lol: !

@ bassrecord

Probably I did not describe it good enough , ....but I want the lure simply to sink down to bottom and possibly have it stand on it's lip with the tail pointing slightly upward , ...........no kinda "turning -over" action intended , .............though this could be something to think about as well :lol: !

Thanks a lot , folks , ...........greetz , Dieter :yay:

Edited by diemai

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Hey Dieter,

Great looking bait and an awesome concept on what your trying to accomplish. I really like the idea of the hooks being on the back of the lure. That's where a lot of guys are putting the hook on their soft swimbaits. Instead of adding magnets to help hold the hook in place have you considered having it held in place by some sort of plastic collar or mechanism that would release the hook when a fish hits it? I can remember a lure called the "Boomerang" that was something similar to the Mann's Little George. It was a solid lead bait with a hole through the body starting at the line tie position and going downwards to where the hook hanger position would be on the bottom of the bait. In this cavity was a plastic piece that held onto the eye of a treble hook and snapped into place in the lure. This was made possible because of a ridge around the plastic part that fit into a groove on the lead body. When a fish bit the lure the lead body would separate from the treble hook and make it harder for the fish to throw the hook because of the lesser weight. Seeing your lure made me think of this as it should lessen the weight at the top of your bait. The idea would have to be modified to fit your particular concept so as to allow the hook placement to remain on the back, but I'm sure that wouldn't be a big problem for you. Just a thought. Keep us informed of your progress. Really looking forward to seeing where you go with this idea.

RG

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@ RayburnGuy

Thanks a lot for your describtion , ....I do not know that lure , but by your describtion I can clearly figure out about it's function !

As it seems , the weight of the hooks being located on the back of the lure is overrated by many , I have proceeded with my lures this morning , temporary put in weights and gave them a swim in the tub , .......there have different issues come up but the hook arrangements weight !

Made a video , but I had trouble uploading it on YouTube , will try again tonight after work , ...no time anymore , gotta be off soon !

Anyway , the lure with the shifting weights performed just perfect , the weight shifting functions well and the lure tracks nice , even at higher retrieve pace , ....can't tell about the casting performance yet , this must be left for the first outdoors test at lakeside after it would be finally done !

The "Back Hooks" lure stands on its bill as I've intended , but it would not wiggle well , almost not at all , .........I guess , that I need to alter the lip's length or even it's angle , gotta tinker on it a bit more through the coming days !

Here are some more pictures , that I had shot this morning , will try to put up the video in about 10 hrs from now !

@ mark poulson

Mark , it did not require any added weights to the lure with the internal weight , only the narrow lead stripe glued into the harness slot was enough to balance the lure well .

greetz , Dieter :yay:

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Edited by diemai

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Dieter,

I'm glad it's working according to plan.

I look forward to the next video.

Your lures are really clean. Great work.

What kind of glue are you using for your plugs?

A local lure maker, TyLures, uses a small section of clear plastic tube, glued to the lure and slit down the side, to hold the hooks close until the fish bites, at which point the plastic tube opens and releases the shaft of the hook.

I think it's a simple and lightweight way to secure the hooks to the lure.

One of the small, clear coffee stirrer straws looks perfect for the job. Some are red. Maybe that would enhance the lure, too.

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@ mark poulson

Thanks about that tip on the slotted tubing , Mark ,...... really something to take into consideration !

I am using my ordinary two component epoxy 5 min glue for PVC and wood alike , it virtually bonds everything !

I have now managed to upload my video displaying this two lures , it turned out of bad quality again , sorry , ....something must be wrong with my PC , ......the uploaded version from the camera is still OK on the Windows Media Player , but after having joined all the single video sequences to a film , the pictures partly become bad and this way it also gets uploaded on YouTube !

But anyway , the important things are to be seen , cracked my brains at work , what to do next with that "Back Hooks" lure , .......guess , that I would at first alter the lip angle , gonna make a temporary kinked lip of aluminium for a test , if it should work out , I'd close the actual lipslot and cut a new one to accommodate a straight epoxy sheet lip .

Also thinking , that the ballast in the deeply bulging belly might prevent the lure from wiggling , .......as the hooks and harness weight on the back does not seem to be such a great issue , I am thinking to shave the belly a bit to achieve less sideward resistance of the blank in the water , this would also enable me to place the ballast more towards the lengthwise center of the lure for less sideward stability , .........this would be a second option to me !

Off course I would have to close all the weight holes with PVC plugs and start all over again with balancing the lure , maybe also not as much tail-up or even with the back level ?

But I certainly would be glad to read other opinions as well !

Please check

greetz , Dieter :yay:

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The sliding weighted lure swims very nice and I can clearly hear the sound of the weight shifting :yay: . Your suggestion of the metal temporary lip is a great idea and Ive used this in the past to find difficult angles on some baits. Maybe try a steeper lip angle with the combo of aslightly wider lip.I think if you move the weight a little deeper to center of the bait this may help also. If you canget this bait to swim like your other bait you still may have some trouble with the weight of the hooks on the back. In the video there wasnt any side to side swim on this bait with the hooks on the back and if you get this bait to finally wiggle this is where you may run into some trouble( hope not) with the weight on the spine. THere is no wiggle action right now to cause the tipping efffect. This is a very nice looking bait and im sure you will get this bait running :worship: Before moving anything try ripping the bait in deeper water, this is what you were talking about how you where wanting to fish this bait earlier in the post, it may run perfectly for this type of fishing. good luck and let me know the progress of your bait. You have my mind wondering of different options.

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Dieter. My thoughts are that the line of the lip is too close to the 'X'ing point, thus the forces at the lip do not have enough leverage to swing the tail. Unfortunately moving the weights rearwards will alter your desired nose down configuration.

I firmly believe that we should design the bait to do what WE want it to do, so percevere. Try to get the lip further forward and/or position the weights very slightly more to the rear. In the vid, I can see that the lure is trying to wiggle, so it is close.

Also, I remember testing some deeper swimmers in a swimming pool and noticed that as soon as the lure contacted the bottom, the action was killed. So, as Jamie suggested, try it in deeper water, it may work.

Dave

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Dieter- nice work and nice action with the rattle lure- I also think depth will prove to be the problem with the 'hook over lure', you can see it wants to work, it seems to me like it just needs it's optimum depth to get going. The colour also caught my eye, looks very natural and would probably get smashed, I think it would here anyway.

Hang in there.Pete

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Hi , folks ,

Thanks so much for your input and advice :worship: , .........this morning I had swim-tested the "BackHook" lure again trying it's action with a couple of different temporary aluminium lips .

Also temporary moved the rear weight backward a bit by taping it on , this resulted into a more tail-down level of the lure standing on bottom , but still the tail pointed about 15° to 20° upward , which is fairly enough , I guess ?

The slender lip on the left(and mounted to the lureblank on the sideview picture) worked best to provide a tight wiggle , but that one was not frequent , often stopping and setting in again .

I do not want the action to be too pronounced , as coldwater Zander prefer more "quiet" lures in fall and winter , anyway , but certainly a lure should have a reliable swimming action .

Anyway , I had made up my mind to take a rather drastical action and plugging the weightholes , the lipslot and also cut open the harness slot at the nose to bend the tow eye more upward , ..........by now I have glued in all parts , the next work would be to sand all flush to the outer shape of the body and cut a new lipslot pointing more downward and placed a bit more to the rear compared to the present one(this is , why I plugged the weightholes) ,........ later setting in this kinda slender lip .

This linetie/lip configuration is rather the one of a wakebait , these usually do have a stong roll and I'm hoping to achieve a bit of a more pronounced and frequent wiggle this way .

Dave , if it won't work out that way , I can also try to put the lip forward , as you have suggested it , .......maybe into a configuration like a "SuperShadRap "?Slowly the lure would come to look like a piece of cheese with all holes in it ,but it's just a prototype :lol: !

Also thinking about re-designing the body shape entirely to a kinda "GrandMa" outline , but swimming upside down ???

Thanks again for your participation in this challenge , that I've put myself into :worship: , ........greetz , Dieter :yay:

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Edited by diemai

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Hi , folks ,

After having gone through some bath tub testing again this morning I 'm now going to surrender to this lure "unwilling" to swim :( , ........gonna launch an entirely different design :yes: !

After Dave's advice I had mounted a lip in front and taped on the weights outside of the belly , so that the tail would just slightly point upward , almost level to bottom and the lure had a frequent and tight kinda lazy wiggle this way !

Went down the workshop and drilled new weight holes at previously determined locations(the old ones were already plugged) , inserted the weights and went back to the tub .

The lure stood on its nose now , ....no action anymore :oooh: !

Guess that the change of weight location from the outside to the inside of the belly drastically changed the center of gravity never had this happen to that extend with any other lure :? !

I now think , that it's of no use to continue tinkering on this one , ..........I'd take it as a learning process , .........I have already sketched down another prototype for a lure with the hooks on it's back , a rather more proven body and lip configuration , I guess .

It is gonna be narrower and not having a deeply bulged belly , as it seems that the weight of the hooks and magnetic foil on the back do not have such a great influence as I have thought at first .

Gonna insert the internal wire harness from a belly slot with the hook eyes passing trough slots towards the spine of the lure , ........this way I can easily balance it with lead sheet inside of the harness slot , .......without drilling and re-closing holes , like I had to do on the first one :yay: !

Anyway , gonna keep you informed , ..........but could take some time as I am gonna be off work for a week and a half and going fishing , not much time for the workshop anymore !

greetz , Dieter :yay:

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Hi , folks ,

By now I'm done shaping the new "Back Hooks" lure design , and I had already bath tub tested it with a 1,5 mm stainless steel lip and its hardware just stuck into their accommodating slots .

This way with the two 10 X 5 mm curtain weight slugs the lure worked just fine with a rolling and "X"-ing action , but there is not enough space to glue in the weights at that particular location ,.......... that lip seems to be a little heavy , the lure floats up at about 35° with it(without any weights added) !

So what I'm gonna do is to try lighter lip materials like epoxy(circuit board) and aluminium , to be able to place weights more towards the nose of the lure , ....I am aware to probably have to beat those weights flat to be able to place them as close to belly outline as possible for maximum keel effect .

I have now glued in the wire harness and magnetic stripes , so I can do another swim test with different lips tonight or tomorrow !

greetz , diemai :yay:

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Dieter,

In the past, when I've been cramped for space for my ballast, I've drilled holes side to side, and install the ballast that way. Just a thought for you.

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@ mark poulson

Thanks for your advice , Mark , .....I have done this on one of my last PVC swimbaits as well , put some small weights for fine trimming on either side of the internal wire harness .

But on this particular lure it won't be neccessary to drill sideward holes ,........ the way that I have constructed the internal harness leaves more than enough space to embed weights into the belly .

Now here is a little update :

Found a little time today for some waterbucket testing , ........at first I took a 10 grams inline ball sinker and taped it to the belly of the lure , an aluminium lip was temporary stuck into its slot .

The lure sank at about 6" per second and stood on the lip with the tail pointed upward at about 20° to 25° .

I was satisfied with that sink rate , though being aware , that it surely would increase in the end , ........but anyway ,...... in my vise and with a hammer I have then rendered that lead ball to a kinda "brick" shape and cut an accommodating groove tnto the belly of the lure , ...........the previously taped-on sinker was located at the lengthwise center of that groove .

What I have found out afterwards , was that the lure blank , now that the weight was located deeper towards it's center , stood on its lip 90° offset to the bottom of the bucket .

I had observed the same with the first reject lure , ..........compared to the weights taped to the outside belly , the bait would always come to sit head down more pronounced with the ballast embeded into the belly !

Having temporary placed the weight into its groove and secured it with some tape , I had also replaced the aluminium lip with a lip of epoxy sheet(circuit board) , ........with this one the lure still did just float up nose down at about 10° to 15° .

I also attached a small paperclip to the line tie to resemble the wire leader , that I would use for fishing the lure later , ........this one made the epoxy-lipped lure sink slowly with the lip also standing about 90° offset to the bottom , but only the paperclip touching bottom !

With the aluminium lip attached the paperclip did not change a thing in terms of the position of the lure at bottom , only the sink rate became faster , off course .

I am now wondering , which lip I should finally assemble , .........in two days I would do another bath tub test(no time tomorrow) , hopefully this nose down position won't have the same negative effect on the wobbling action like it did on the first reject lure !

Thanks again for your participation , .........greetz , Dieter :yay:

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Maybe that's why the Rapala DT series lures all have such deep bellies. That way they can place the ballast low enough to achieve the kind of lure angle you're looking for.

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