10 Cavity Or Greater Hand Injection Molds? Anybody Using?

[GB GONE]

I am curious if anyone is using 10 caivty or greater hand injection molds? Not small crappie baits or panfish baits but like a 5.25 stick bait mold or 4" grub mold.

I would like to know what hand injector you might be using to push all that plastic and how effective the larger molds are.

As fast as hand injection is, larger molds would make it even faster. Del has 10 cavity and larger in his regular inventory now.

I think that 20 cavities might be tough to push with a hand injector or you may need closer to an 8oz hand injector. Just trying to wrap my head around some of this because it seems speed is paramount with this technique.

If I was doing this for production, I don't think I would waste my time on 2 or 4 cavity molds as that would just be a time limiter.

Anybody doing the larger molds by hand and care to share your experiences? I am thinking I need to commission my engineering buddies to make a 1 gallon, low psi, reasonably costing injection machine in their lab.

Jim

[pickeralpete]

I am curious if anyone is using 10 caivty or greater hand injection molds? Not small crappie baits or panfish baits but like a 5.25 stick bait mold or 4" grub mold.

I would like to know what hand injector you might be using to push all that plastic and how effective the larger molds are.

As fast as hand injection is, larger molds would make it even faster. Del has 10 cavity and larger in his regular inventory now.

I think that 20 cavities might be tough to push with a hand injector or you may need closer to an 8oz hand injector. Just trying to wrap my head around some of this because it seems speed is paramount with this technique.

If I was doing this for production, I don't think I would waste my time on 2 or 4 cavity molds as that would just be a time limiter.

Anybody doing the larger molds by hand and care to share your experiences? I am thinking I need to commission my engineering buddies to make a 1 gallon, low psi, reasonably costing injection machine in their lab.

Jim

why would you need a larger cavity mold? i have 5 of Bears 5 cavity Stick molds now and once the plastic is ready i can have 100 stick baits on the bench in minutes.

not to mention that a 20 cavity 5.25" Stick mold from Del cost $325.00, and 4 of Bears 5.25" Stick molds (20 cavities) cost $318, its actually a few dollars cheaper and you dont have any damn pins or nuts to deal with (which also speeds you up a little bit)

I am wondering why people think more cavities per mold is better and faster, we arent dealing with a high dollar injection machine here.

btw Jim, if you had your buddies make you an injection machine, you couldnt call the Hand Poured

[GB GONE]

why would you need a larger cavity mold?

I am wondering why people think more cavities per mold is better and faster, we arent dealing with a high dollar injection machine here.

btw Jim, if you had your buddies make you an injection machine, you couldnt call the Hand Poured

As I have been told in many threads here by the hand injection guys, time is money. I have been told repeatedly by many of the hand injection guys that more cavities and more molds is faster. I can go back and get those threads. If I have (4) 20 cavity molds, I can make more far more sticks than you can with 4 5-cavity molds. I doubt the time to push teh plunger down will vary by more than a couple seconds. You don't agree that it would be easier to inject one large mold vs injecting 4 seperate molds? Or that demolding 1 mold would be faster than 4 seperate molds? I know that currently it takes me far more time to use a 1 cavity mold hand injection vs the 2 cavity molds I have.

On the costs you post, I have been quoted far better pricing so that is not an issue. I can get the molds for far less than what 4 of Bear's molds cost easy. Grubs is what I am looking at. Even the current posted costs between mold manufacturers are greatly different! Some single cavity molds cost more than other 2 cavity molds. Even if I paid a few bucks more (I won't), the time I could make up would easily pay for the few bucks.

On the last point, I would not call them hand poured, I would call them hand injection as they should be. I have no problem saying how my baits are made.

Jim

[powerworm]

hey jim glad to see someone thinking about and injection machine for the small baitmakers; my problem here is well a little history first. melly and i had 80+ cavities of dels 5" senko molds and were doing pretty good but we went looking for something to give our production a boost without having to invest in more molds. that was when we found bears baits and after about 2 months of talking with him and a few other people that were using them we bought 10 senko molds from him and sold our delmart molds. now we were able to make close to 900 and a couple times got 1000 baits an hour with the old molds; now though 1000 is a low number and we can kick out 1300 religiously. i honestly believe the time gained is in the demolding process screws and nuts take alot longer than releasing my speed clamps and opening hinged molds. i also have 12 of dels plug craw molds and would love for them to be hinged so i could boost my production on them as the customer i make them for usually orders 500 at a time of 15 different colors.

[pickeralpete]

As I have been told in many threads here by the hand injection guys, time is money. I have been told repeatedly by many of the hand injection guys that more cavities and more molds is faster. I can go back and get those threads. If I have (4) 20 cavity molds, I can make more far more sticks than you can with 4 5-cavity molds. I doubt the time to push teh plunger down will vary by more than a couple seconds. You don't agree that it would be easier to inject one large mold vs injecting 4 seperate molds? Or that demolding 1 mold would be faster than 4 seperate molds? I know that currently it takes me far more time to use a 1 cavity mold hand injection vs the 2 cavity molds I have.

On the costs you post, I have been quoted far better pricing so that is not an issue. I can get the molds for far less than what 4 of Bear's molds cost easy. Grubs is what I am looking at. Even the current posted costs between mold manufacturers are greatly different! Some single cavity molds cost more than other 2 cavity molds. Even if I paid a few bucks more (I won't), the time I could make up would easily pay for the few bucks.

On the last point, I would not call them hand poured, I would call them hand injection as they should be. I have no problem saying how my baits are made.

Jim

in my experience cavity for cavity the smaller molds are faster as the baits set faster.

your comparison of (4) 20 cavity molds compared to (5) 5 cavity molds would be correct, compare apples to apples though. as i said, cavity for cavity the smaller molds in my opinion will be faster. also on the prices, to the average users that will see this, Bears are cheaper to buy, not counting your "special" discount.

Jon would be a good guy to get in here to discuss this, as he has far more experience producing an insane amount of baits.

[GB GONE]

Just as a point of reference, any molds can be clamped together and the pins/screws removed. I have done that with my hnad poured molds for years so that is not even an issue for me and should not be for anyone really. Just use 2 clamps instead of one.

Do you agree that larger cavity molds will increase your speed and production? I mean if de-molding is the big time deal then de-molding 1 large mold should be faster than de-mold several smaller molds.

Seems you would also have to invest in more injectors or at least tips if you have several small molds vs larger molds. The plastic is going to clog eventually, that is just time. One large mold will not take a significant longer time to inject vs a smaller mold, just more plastic going in.

I am really just asking this as I have many baits that there are no hand injection molds for so those will remain hand poured. But if I decide to make sticks grubs or other baits that can be easily hand injected, wouldn't it make way more sense to just go for a larger cavity mold out of the gate vs adding on more and more 2 or 4 cavity molds.

If anyone is doing the larger ones, let me know....

Jim

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

hey jim glad to see someone thinking about and injection machine for the small baitmakers; my problem here is well a little history first. melly and i had 80+ cavities of dels 5" senko molds and were doing pretty good but we went looking for something to give our production a boost without having to invest in more molds. that was when we found bears baits and after about 2 months of talking with him and a few other people that were using them we bought 10 senko molds from him and sold our delmart molds. now we were able to make close to 900 and a couple times got 1000 baits an hour with the old molds; now though 1000 is a low number and we can kick out 1300 religiously. i honestly believe the time gained is in the demolding process screws and nuts take alot longer than releasing my speed clamps and opening hinged molds. i also have 12 of dels plug craw molds and would love for them to be hinged so i could boost my production on them as the customer i make them for usually orders 500 at a time of 15 different colors.

Screws and nuts? I made my very first mold that way, and then I realized before I poured my very first bait I was going to be wasting a lot of time with it. My next one I made with just pins and I throw a welding clamp on it. I get three baits out of that one in the same time it takes me to get one bait out of Frankenstein.

That being said and after reading this thread I am thinking about converting my bolt mold to a pin mold. That's what prototypes are for right? Why not evaluate converting your Del Molds to pin clamp molds.

[GB GONE]

in my experience cavity for cavity the smaller molds are faster as the baits set faster.

If this were true, then it would make more sense to just get all 1 or 2 cavity molds as they would cool even faster. I am guessing that the difference would not be much greater as there is considerably more metal to absorb and release the heat in the large mold. This is one of the issues I am interested in.

I guess what I am saying is that I would get (4) 20 cavity molds from the get go. Certainly the first would cool after the fourth was being injected. I think 80 baits could be hand injected in less than a few minutes and then the de-molding process would begin.

I think the larger, multi-cavity molds are an area that very few, if any, are doing by hand injection and that is why I would like to hear from some for advice or ideas.

Jim

[GB GONE]

The other thought is that with a larger cavity mold, you just might have to have a pin/bolt/wing nut in the center area for closure.

I'd have to leave that to the mold makers but at some point, pressure at just the sides may not be enough.

Just thinking.....

Jim

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

The other thought is that with a larger cavity mold, you just might have to have a pin/bolt/wing nut in the center area for closure.

I'd have to leave that to the mold makers but at some point, pressure at just the sides may not be enough.

Just thinking.....

Jim

I guess that would depend on the overall dimension of the mold. On my single cavity I use a single welding clamp and it puts pressure right in the middle. I designed it with for four alignment pins, but I only installed two of them.

There are bar clamps with some pretty long jaws as well. If you can't find those big ones with a short enough bar to be convenient just cut off the bar.

Then I'm just a beginner and a hack trying to make as much of this stuff for myself as possible just to prove I can. LOL.

[powerworm]

the clamping issue is one area id like to see all mold makers agree on. i have a guy working on a jig for all of my plug craw molds to sit in so that they are sitting with 1 corner up like a diamond but i am going to have to true another side as the bottom is already true/flush the way it was explained to me was that there will be some sort of like clamp bar to squeeze the molds to gether. i like this site when we can all work towards an idea and make ALL products better!! as for your grub molds jim as little amount of plastic as they take if you could line 10 down a side with a center runner to feed all 20 baits you could probably run 5 with someone to help you demold and never stop shooting molds..are you looking at something like a fat albert or a kalins grub? id really be interested in something like those as well, my bobs molds just throw out so many defective baits i hate using them!!

[GB GONE]

..are you looking at something like a fat albert or a kalins grub? id really be interested in something like those as well, my bobs molds just throw out so many defective baits i hate using them!!

Looking at both to be honest. Not sure why you get defective baits as I have many hand inject baits from Bob/Kevin and soem are very intricate. I never get a bad bait. Must be something with the venting i'd guess.

I'll be honest, between the clamp and the single wing nut, I'll take the single wing nut and forget the clamp all together. It is just what I am used to and takes up way less space when I have a counter full of molds to do.

I may have to go forward without any personal experience advice and then relay the info back to you guys...

Jim

[BBK]

not to mention that a 20 cavity 5.25" Stick mold from Del cost $325.00, and 4 of Bears 5.25" Stick molds (20 cavities) cost $318, its actually a few dollars cheaper and you dont have any damn pins or nuts to deal with (which also speeds you up a little bit)

Your saying opening 4 molds with a screwdriver is faster then pulling 2 pins and unscrewing 2 nuts?

1vs1 bears wins every time in demolding time, but 4 to 1 there is no comparasin.

[GB GONE]

He was saying that NOT dealing with the pins and nuts speeds you up....

I remove all those anyways on the molds I have and just use clamps. The single wing nut is as fast as removing a clamp to me and doesn't take up all that room on your work bench when you have to clamp 50 molds together.

I don't think either of the last methods are issues.

I am looking for advice on how well the injection goes in the large molds and pros and cons.... Especially on how large the injector has to be to fill a 10 or 20 cavity mold for a grub bait.

I guess I'll drop the $$$ and let ya'll know.

Jim

Edited May 13, 2010 by ghostbaits

[Frank]

Well Jim I have been working on a mold with Kevin with 8 cavitys. And it is a differant animal totally. He could not get it to shoot without some defects so he sent it to me and after some time I finally got it to shoot good baits consistantly. I though it was the venting also but I am having him make another one without vents at all and try to shoot it like I did the first one. I have the capability of venting my molds at home so I will try and see what I come up with. One thing that I have found out is that all molds shoot a little differant and have there own personality. Hope it work out for you. Frank

[powerworm]

i am anxious to hear how it goes for you jim i just have so much money tied up right now in this process it is sopmetimes hard for me to see past that but i am always open to a good discussion on making things better!!!

[GB GONE]

Thanks for that Frank as I assumed the large molds would be different and that is why I was asking. I'd guess that sticks would be an easy one but with appendages and other things like tails, things might get far more complicated.

There are some molds that will never be a hand injection as you couldn't make the colors that way no matter what you did but for others, the change may happen.

I too have lots tied up in molds and things but I didn't go into hand injecting until the dust settled a bit and some kinks were worked out. It really has been around for a lot longer than anybody realizes.

Now that things are progressing and I have played around enough to be dangerous, I am ready to take things to a much higher level. To me that means larger cavity molds with less de-molding time. My engineering buddy says he could make a low psi machine for less than $200 + the air compressor. He probably has all the parts...

Anyway, another adventure... I'd rathr hit the middle of the curve this time instead of the real low end like when I started hand pouring!!

Jim

[gone2long]

Ah glad to see another anal thread from the masters in the works!

[Delw]

20 cavity stik molds work fine, you will need to use a suction gun from Napa which cost a whopping 12 bucks, they have changed the cup washers to a non heat resistant type, so you will need to convert it to o-rings, or you use a pressure pot( thats the best way)

When using LARGE injection molds you MUST use a press, or a vise with a plates on it That cover 75% of the mold. YOU DONT USE NUTS and c clamps wont really cut it. . Most guys use an air press with a large plate on both ends or a vise, this allows the plates to be held closed FLAT

2 pins are used for alingment.

one mold wont cut it you will need a min of 3 to keep a rythem going. the baits can be taking out of the mold while the inside of the bait is still jelly or liquid. you just need to hang them and the wont get dents.

and yes you can shoot 20 faster than you can 4 5 cavity molds, put the molds together in a waffer and you can shoot 100 at a time with no problems. Pressure pots work best for anything over shooting 40 5 1/2" stick baits at one time I do have a few customers shooting 60 at a time with there home made injection guns.

.

The problem with MOST bigger multicavity molds is the way they are clamped and how much pressure you push dont on the injector..

you have to be careful with the molds so you dont get DINGS on the side of them, doing so will give you bad results and you will pull your hair out trying to find the problem.

The other big problem people have is sucking air in the injection gun before they shoot, on little molds its no biggy but on the larger shots its very important that you dont get lots of air, Another reason for a pressure pot.

One thing to remember these hand injection/suction guns have been used for years by bait makers that supply lots of the big stores in there own brand. its work for sure, personally I would rather go with a zorn machine than sit there shooting baits all day. Ask Mike he will tell you

but like anything when you want to produce lots of baits very quickly there needs to be money spent. and its alot easier to fork down a few 1000 bucks vs 40k for a machine. but you also have to work harder.

Delw

Edited May 14, 2010 by Delw

[GB GONE]

Ah glad to see another anal thread from the masters in the works!

What is up with this guy?????? Nothing pertains to the topic, he just randomly spews nonsense.

Once again, a febile attempt to stir up problems.

Back to the topic. Thanks for all the info Del. Sounds like going past 4-6 cavities may not be that great of an idea unless a pressure pot is involved or lots of elbow grease.

Thanks all as this has really helped me form how to go forward.

Jim

[smallmouthaholic]

What is up with this guy?????? Nothing pertains to the topic, he just randomly spews nonsense.

Once again, a febile attempt to stir up problems.

Back to the topic. Thanks for all the info Del. Sounds like going past 4-6 cavities may not be that great of an idea unless a pressure pot is involved or lots of elbow grease.

Thanks all as this has really helped me form how to go forward.

Jim

I just use a single bar clamp w/6 Bears ,hinged injector molds and inject. Presto-no digs no dents - no vise-no suction cups - no pressure pots. It's called the K.I.S.S. system

[GB GONE]

I just use a single bar clamp w/6 Bears ,hinged injector molds and inject. Presto-no digs no dents - no vise-no suction cups - no pressure pots. It's called the K.I.S.S. system

10-4... Seems I can get a 4 cavity grub mold for $84. I think you said it before Al, for production, time is money. 1 cavity molds are almost as much as 4 cavities and more than 2 cavites on some sites. Five of those molds clamped together will give me 20 baits quick as you can blink an eye.

Probably could bang out 1000 a night without rushing and with the pot running to keep plastic flowing...

All the good info has helped me form a good idea on which way to go, thanks guys... Time to sell some hand injected grubs..

Jim

Edited May 14, 2010 by ghostbaits

[smallmouthaholic]

10-4... Seems I can get a 4 cavity grub mold for $84. I think you said it before Al, for production, time is money. 1 cavity molds are almost as much as 4 cavities and more than 2 cavites on some sites. Five of those molds clamped together will give me 20 baits quick as you can blink an eye.

Probably could bang out 1000 a night without rushing and with the pot running to keep plastic flowing...

All the good info has helped me form a good idea on which way to go, thanks guys... Time to sell some hand injected grubs..

Jim

Some are 5 and some are 2 from Bears. The Mogambu grub is a single cavity. Well designed ,hand-injected grub molds are very easy to work with.

You wonder why you ever hand poured all this time once you get into it.

[GB GONE]

Ooops...

Edited May 14, 2010 by ghostbaits

[GB GONE]

You wonder why you ever hand poured all this time once you get into it.

Probably not for me personally. I have many hand injection molds now but some baits still can't be made by hand injection as the mold makers can't make the molds. Kevin is close on some though and many colors can't be made that way at all. I'll do both for sure still as I offer over 19 bait styles. Things that can be done via hand injection will be mass produced in single colors but most of my customers come for custom stuff you would never see on my site. I supply 3 Elite Series pros with stuff right now and I could not make what they want with the injector. Plus, I can charge a very nice price for hand poured baits. Many go for over $2 a bait...

I am finding there is going to be a place for both personally as I never want to loose my hand pour skill. But if I can bang out hundreds of single color baits in an evening, I can branch out to hundreds of retail locations instead of 50 or so....

I'll use the hand injection for the first part of the K.I.S.S..... S.I.B......

Jim