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Misadventures In Propionate
18 replies to this topic
Posted 10 June 2010 - 01:32 PM
Well, I tried using propionate as a top coat. I had finished a couple baits(well one of them was finished) and wanted to try out the prop on em. I had tested a small piece of wood that i painted in the prop first and it turned out pretty good. however, after dipping my lures in it, the results were pretty bad. The first one was foiled and a minnow type. I am not sure if the hash marks for scales I did was the culprit for making the foil peel off. It was either just the acetone evaporating and stretching it off, or the acetone actually got under it and dissolved the spray adhesive I used.
here is the first one I just described:
Posted 10 June 2010 - 01:39 PM
Here is the other one that I wanted to just put a clear coat on before I did the gill plates and eyes.
you can see on both lures that I actually had a good clear coat on them using the "dip-n-sit"© <--- haha. I will attach that photo also. Both lure were sealed with prop, painted and heat set, and I am wondering if a clear coat of paint would have prevented this. The only down side to that in my opinion is that i know the acetone would dissolve some of the paint into it, so I didnt want to contaminate my prop. Bottom line for this experiment, I think I will continue with prop for sealer, and order some DN's. Any suggestions or ideas are welcome, I just thought I would share my experience.
Posted 11 June 2010 - 01:00 AM
Ooops. Not good news after your hard work .
I notice from the last picture you hang the baits over the Acetone in a sealed jar. Were all the baits done in this way ? and do you do this to combat 'Blushing' of the finish coat ?. If they were the first thing that springs to mind is you are slowing down the evaporation process. This will allow a longer period for the propionate to remain in contact with the lure finish and do its dastardly deeds. I would suggest dipping and air drying a few times before dipping and drying in the jar. This should allow a protective coat to build over the lure to protect during the final coatings. Acetone is the fastest evaporating solvent so it is not a long process to build up the protective coat. I dip my baits which are painted with cellulose paints that acetone destroys but when air dried I can get a coat on the baits because of the speed of evaporation, it does not have chance to melt the paint it is so quick and once the prop has hardened it can be dipped as many times as I wish with no detrimental effect. As for the 'Blushing' I think you will find it will dissapear with the consequent coats when finally hung over the liquid in the jar.
I have used propionate extensively for sealing woods and occasionally for top coats. I do not know if this suggestion will solve your problems as it is a calculated guess on past experience but this is the route I would take, its got to be worth a try. Please let us know how you progress with this problem, info like this is always of use and worth sticking into the old memory bank.
Posted 11 June 2010 - 07:16 AM
Just an observation, but I found that Prop does not adhere well to metal. Add to that, the solvents used to melt it can react with your paint and other things under it.
I do like it for sealing wood, but I haven't had good fortune using it for other purposes.
Edited by Husky, 11 June 2010 - 07:17 AM.
Posted 11 June 2010 - 07:40 AM
I have some experience in using propionate as a sealer and as a topcoat.
First, let me tell you that propionate solution will not adhere very well on metals, so do not expect to have a perfect bond between the propionate coat and aluminium foil. I do use aluminium foil on crankbaits and sometimes I use propionate solution as topcoat, but it is a very particular case here. I make photofinish crankbaits, which means I glue the thin paper with the image on it to aluminium foil, which then I glue to the lure. Propionate solution will adhere in this case to the thin paper, which is very well glued to the aluminium foil. Actually, the solution goes through the paper and bonds to the glue itself, which is a contact glue (the kind you have to apply a thin layer of it on both parts to be glued, wait a few minutes until it dries out, then press the 2 parts together). So in such cases I do not have headaches about the possibility of propionate coat peeling off the aluminium foil.
If some of the scales on your lure have come off it, this might be explained by an improper glue you have probably used, or to the fact that not all the surface of the lure and of the foil have been covered by a thin layer of glue. Of course, this could also be explained by the fact that the glue you have used may have been dissolved by acetone. Try to use contact glue for such jobs in the future.
I also have had some bad experiences with self adhesive foil. The glue which is used on it will be dissolved by acetone and the foil will lift up at the edges. You can solve this problem by shooting a few very thin layers of propionate solution through your airbrush. The acetone will evaporate before having the time to lift off the foil. I have not tried it yet, since I haven't used an airbrush up to now ( ) but I remember that Palmetto Balsa did this with good results, this time to prevent the paint to run.
After a few coats of propionate through your airbrush, you can continue your final clearcoat by dipping the lure as many times as you want, because the paint is already protected by the first coats applied through the airbrush.
PhilB is right, acetone evaporates very fast, which may cause the "blushing" of the clearcoat. To prevent this, I use a thinner instead of acetone, having a longer evaporation time.
Due to wrinkles of the foil or the glue not being spread uniformly on the lure, the surface of it will not be very smooth, so I prefer to put thinned epoxy as the first clearcoat, which will level out very well, then I continue the clearcoating process by about 20 coats of propionate solution.
Hope this helps.
Posted 11 June 2010 - 09:07 AM
Like Rofish I use cellulose thinners (Virgin Thinners) because it is less prone to that milky 'Blushing' due to its slower evaporation. I have in the past experimented with airbrushing prop but found that the blush was at it's worst when airbrushed, however I must add I have not tried it with a large nozzle which would probably improve that effect.
Great info about the metal problem with prop though.
Posted 11 June 2010 - 04:09 PM
Ahh, thanks for the info. Maybe I will try it again when i have a different solvent. As for now, I have a lot of that prop mixed up and may as well use it as is for a sealer. I did however send an email to Dick Nights from the TU page. That stuff just sounds simpler to use then prop. Has anyone ever had any problems in ordering DN's? I sent an email a couple months ago and never heard back. Waiting to hear from this other email I just sent.
Posted 11 June 2010 - 09:40 PM
Sometimes it takes Dick quite a while to answer emails. I've found the easiest way is to just give him a call. My impression of Dick is that he's a great guy and is more than willing to help. The few times I've called him he's always the one answering the phone and we ended up having some pretty good conversations. Give him a call. His contact number is on his website.
Posted 26 June 2010 - 07:45 PM
Sorry to bring up the old topic. Do you guys know if thinners are compatible with acetone? I was thinking of giving it another go with some Virgin Thinner(btw, is that just lacquer thinner? ) to slow the evaporation more. Also, I have read some other threads on another sight that say you can mix mineral spirits into acetone to slow the evaporation. Any ideas? i really dont want to start sloshing chemicals together without some more info lol. Thanks in advance.
Posted 06 July 2012 - 08:04 AM
Sorry for being the "bumpmaster" once again (especially on a two year old thread!!) but im getting into the propionate game now and this last question is pertinent to my situation.... As most of you know, i live in Georgia where it is ungodly humid... My prop is dissolved in straight acetone but can i add anything ( MEK, thinner, etc) to slow down the flashoff of the acetone and hopefully prevent blushing? Im only using prop as a sealer so its entirely possible im getting worked up over nothing but im turning to you guys for a little advice !!
Posted 06 July 2012 - 08:23 AM
By the way... Ive got a little over 13 pounds of propionate pellets... If anybody needs a few ounces PM me and i'd be happy to send some your way...
Posted 06 July 2012 - 08:24 AM
If your using just as a sealer for your wood don't worry about any blushing...your going to paint over the top of it anyway..Nathan
Posted 06 July 2012 - 08:26 AM
I know... I just didnt want to start (yet) another thread when theres already 5,289 other ones....
Posted 06 July 2012 - 08:28 AM
I actually kinda wondered if the blushing might be a benefit.... If the seal coat is already white-ish i wiuldnt have to use as much paint to cover....
Posted 06 July 2012 - 08:32 AM
Posted 09 July 2012 - 07:11 AM
Now that my bait has had some time to cure i sanded it off a little only to notice a "Don Ho" effect.... Tiny bubbles, to be exact... I thought i had submerged my lure long enough to allow all the bubbles to subside before removing it from the solution but apparently there were some surface Klingons that have now been covered bu subsequent dips. How worried do i need to be about this and should i break out my Hawaiian shirt and ukelele? Tiiiiiiiiiiny bubbles..... In the prop......