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Target Superclear 9000 Water Based Polyurethane?
15 replies to this topic
Posted 12 June 2010 - 09:03 PM
I seen in a gallery that someone has used this for baits. I have been looking for something i can spray on water based paint other than DN topcoat. It looks like it is used for table tops and stuff like that. Here is the link SuperClear 9000
I was just wondering if anyone uses it and what are the pros and cons??
Posted 12 June 2010 - 10:17 PM
Have both, (TargetCoatings) EM9300 Ext. Clear and EM 9000 Super Clear and I could use the same statment to cover both materials. It might work great on a table but on baits it is a waste of time and money. I still have almost a full quart of the EM9300ext, would give the stuff away if it did not cost more for shipping and a trip to the post office than the stuff is worth.
Posted 15 June 2010 - 06:05 AM
to reiterate what Whittler said;
Water based Poly + fishing lures = waste of time and money. This topic surfaces every few months, and has for several years. The product name might change (Polycrylic, etc), but the fishing performance never does. After applying it as a clearcoat, it looks as though it would work. If you are going to fish with it, it won't. There are a lot of products that will work to some extent to protect your lure and its paint. This is not one of them.
Posted 17 June 2010 - 11:55 AM
I've used both the SC9000 and EM9300 for lures, and had no problems.
I make both one piece lures, and jointed swimbaits, and use both finishes on them.
The SC9000 will cloud up if left on wet carpet overnight, because it's an interior finish, but I have swimbaits that I fished for a year that have held up just fine. If I get clouding, I just hang the lure up to dry overnight, and the finish is fine.
And the SC9000 is so clear it doesn't take away from any paint job. Even metallic paints.
I've found the EM9300, the exterior finish, is harder, and less clear, than the SC9000. In fact, it is so strong that it will cause a fine crackle effect on the Createx paint job. I dip once in the SC9000, to protect the paint, and then twice more with the EM9300, for lures that are fished in salt water, where the fish have bigger teeth.
For one piece lures, like cranks and gliders, one dip in the SC9000 is fine for me.
I've found that no top coat will provide waterproof protection for jointed lures. There are just too many potential point of entry.
So waterproofing the lure before painting is key.
I use PVC decking, which is waterproof, for most of my lures, so I don't worry about water intrusion ruining my paint job and top coat.
With any jointed lure, rounding the edges of the joints to minimize sharp edges that might chip is critical. But I have lures with chips in the SC9000 and paint, down to the white primer, and they still work, and the rest of the finish is fine.
It's nice not to have to "retire" a lure for repairs because I hit it on the rocks. I just keep on fishing it, even with any chips and dents. That's the beauty of PVC.
One other thing.
I "T" my trebles, like the trolling guys do, to minimize hook rash.
Posted 17 June 2010 - 12:16 PM
One more thing.
If you're making lures for sale, you really need to find a "foolproof" system that works for you, so you don't have a ton of service issues.
If you are making lures for yourself, and your friends, it's not as critical to achieve "perfection".
Don't let the hunt for the "perfect" anything get in the way of actually building lures and fishing them.
I've been a carpenter and contractor for over forty years, and can build anything I can see. I am as comfortable using hand tools as using power tool, and have found, over the years, that I can finish a job with only hand tools faster that if I have to roll out cords and break out power toos.
Over the years, I've belonged to wood working clubs where some guys get so caught up in which type of sharpening stone is best that they never actually built anything. I'm afraid that is probably true in lure making, too.
So I'd recommend just building and fishing, and changing methods as you learn and grow as a luremaker. The more you build, the more you'll learn what works best for you.
Posted 17 June 2010 - 06:09 PM
Maybe it is just me but if I'm making anything, for personal use or for a customer, I want to turn out the best product I can. There are more than a few people here who also have some skills and experience.
My father made most of his own baits for bass fishing, and I'm sure he would love to have some of the finishing materials we use today. I still have the first bait I made, one of the ugliest top water baits you will ever see, but I was 11 and it was 1950. You are right, I have learned as a luremaker a few things and one of those things is do not use anything until it has been thourghly tested but then at last count I still have only turned out a few short of 7,000 crankbaits.
Have been working with wood even a few years longer and have always been looking for something better both in tools and finishes. If I were doing a coffee table or a gym floor then the Target Coatings would be one of the options I might consider but for baits there are much better choices. Use a lot of PVC also and although it does not absorb water any area of the bait that is not sealed by the topcoat would allow water to get to the paint which can create a problem. If you want a real mess just let a plastic bait come in contact with the Target Coating.
You mention that it gets cloudy when left overnight on wet carpet, true enough, and if you rub the bait between your fingers the finish will start to roll up with very little pressure. You will not rub of epoxy with your fingers.
Posted 18 June 2010 - 11:28 AM
I have tried the water based clears and in my humble opinion they aren't even close to satisfactory.
The only CC's I have found that work so far are the epoxies (etex, devcon, etc.) and some spray on auto clears.
Posted 18 June 2010 - 04:12 PM
I'm starting to think I'm crazy. I don't experience any of those problems with the SC9000, either on PVC or plastic lures.
I also heat set the SC9000 a couple of times during the drying process, once it's skinned over enough to stop dripping and feel "dry" to the touch.
Posted 18 June 2010 - 09:07 PM
Mark, you seem very much to be comparing the SC Acrylic-thanes to a standard of Devcon 2-Ton epoxy. To me that's like saying that because your current Chevy is better quality than your last Chrysler, that makes it the world's best production automobile.
I know that you know I use Dicknite's topcoat, which doesn't have the issues of cracking, delamination, pulling away from sharp edges. It coats uniformly, evenly, the first coat bonds with the paint, and subsequent coats chemically bond with the previous coat. It will waterproof a jointed lure, and the lure will remain that way. If voided with a sharp object, nothing drastic is going to happen to a balsa bait that can't be fixed at the next opportunity by drying and patching with a bit of Sally Hansen's "Hard As Nails", etc, buth there is no "retirement" or extensive downtime for repairs.. There is a world of clearcoats out there between Devcon 2-Ton, and water-based polys (from better epoxy formulas, to many automotive and industrial clearcoats) that are used every day by very productive luremakers that are far more versatile and much more generally protective, which won't be taken down by slapping the bait against a stump, or by leaving it on the carpet of a damp rod locker overnight.
David and I, as well as several others we know, find Dicknite's Topcoat much faster and more user-friendly than Devcon, and better in every aspect of performance than epoxies for clearcoating. I know my wood lures get fished very hard and hold up, and that clearcoating is a quick and enjoyable part of the luremaking process for me. I understand that you are more casual about your clearcoat because you use waterproof pvc. That is your choice. But I grew up fishing lures in heavy cover or casting to shale bluffs on windy days and watching my best baits slowly and sometimes very quickly disintegrate before my eyes, and it is a mark for me to build no-fail lures that are the best I can build without compromising, within very reasonable parameters.
Posted 18 June 2010 - 09:25 PM
The bait pictured is typical of all the baits I have used Target on. This is a PVC bait with 3 dips, 2hr. wait between dips and was not put in the water for 3 weeks after coating. I use waterbased paint which is heat set after painting and is not touched with fingers after painting. After 2 small bass this is the result.
A few baits took a little longer to reach this point but every bait either turned cloudy/milky or just flat peeled of. After dipping and the wait time between dips it is easier to use epoxy and be done with it. I have a bait painted and epoxied in my shop, submerged in water for over a year with no ill effects. Of all the finishes I have tried, and there are many, nothing comes close to epoxy for crankbaits.
Posted 19 June 2010 - 07:01 PM
Wow, I can see why you don't like it.
But, seriously, I've never had anything like that happen. And I don't worry about finger prints, like I used to with epoxy. I do use latex "throw away" gloves, that I typically don't throw away until they tear. But contamination is nowhere near the same problem.
The worst thing, other that one lure that clouded when left overnight on wet carpet, is that the EM9300, their exterior polyurethane, has chipped where the joints hit each other on jointed swimbaits. But, even then, the paint scheme is fine and doesn't peel like the lure in your picture.
The EM9300 does actually bond with the paint, so, when it chips, it exposes the white primer.
I can touch up the white primer that's exposed with a sharpie, and just keep on fishing.
The only time I've had anything like that happen is back when I used D2T, and it cracked off in big flakes, after I'd "rock tested" it. On purpose, of course.
I know Dean says that DN bites into the paint, and so is a much stronger bond.
I'm sure it's a great top coat.
But for my lure making needs, the hastle of handling, storage, and the long time between dips, has kept me away from DN.
As I said before, since I switched to PVC and SC9000, I can build and prime a lure one day, paint and dip it multiple times the next, and fish it on the third day. I have lots of lures that I've done that with, and they're still fine.
Maybe it's an LA/left coast thing.
Edited by mark poulson, 19 June 2010 - 07:09 PM.
Posted 19 June 2010 - 09:46 PM
I see Devcon and DN as different coatings, both good but to be used for different applications.
If you are building smaller lures like those used for bass or building lures that may be not run correctly with a thick coating then DN is probably a good choice. I have used DN on swimbaits and I like it for the most part, very hard, holds on well, dries fast, etc. The only downside being the whole storage thing and the odor is quite strong too.
I build mostly musky baits and thus far I have yet to find a coating that beats Devcon or Etex. The stuff goes on thick and gives a super tough coating that will last for years. I know DN is hard but it simply does not go on thick enough (in my opinion) to protect wood lures from the damage of musky and pike. I do think DN would probably be fine for plastic lures to be used for musky however.
Edited by RiverMan, 19 June 2010 - 09:47 PM.
Posted 19 June 2010 - 10:55 PM
I've never fished for either pike or musky, or even seen them, except on TV.
But I have fished the salt all my life, and barricuda remind me of the fish you catch.
Nothing stands up to their teeth, period. I've thrown iron to them, and had it come back scratched.
So I imagine pike and musky are the same.
I wonder what kind of wood you have to use that will be hard enough to keep those teeth out?
When I made wood plugs for the ocean, out of douglas fir, the only paint I used was oil based rattle can paint, and clear, and I just repainted them when they got thrashed.
Edited by mark poulson, 19 June 2010 - 10:59 PM.
Posted 20 June 2010 - 09:40 AM
You can use almost any wood but poplar is my favorite. Doug fir is one of my least favorite because of the wide grain. I also like western red cedar.
The key is getting the wood sealed, primered, and then coated with several coats of epoxy.
Posted 20 June 2010 - 09:58 AM
Posted 21 June 2010 - 06:58 AM