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Need Help With Moisture Cured Urethane
18 replies to this topic
Posted 17 June 2010 - 01:07 PM
Guys I have been trying the dip method with some moisture cured urethane and 5 out of 10 baits will have wrinkled paint about 30 seconds after dipping. I have tried everything I know to do. I have been told that the paint may have not been heat set good enough. I tried heat setting the paint for twice as long as I normally do.......same result. My painting process is:
1. Sand the bait with 400 grit
2. clean the bait with wax and grease remover
3. Auto air sealer for the base
4. Createx or auto air paints with heat setting after every coat
5. heat set again for a good bit after the painting process has been completed
6. let the bait set at least 24 hours after I finish painting
I am just not sure what I am doing wrong and why I can't get this stuff to work on 5 or 6 baits in a row, then the next 3 wrinkle
I do the dipping in a spare room in the house and I usually keep the temperture around 72-74 degrees.......so help me out guys, please!
Posted 17 June 2010 - 05:22 PM
I've had the same problem and I think it is heat setting the paint. On resin/wood baits I will heat so long the paint will nearly bubble and don't have any issues dipping DN. But on plastic baits, especially the cheaper made baits I cant heat set them as much or it will split the bait and half of them end up with some cracking or wrinkle. For some reason it seems to happen more on the belly of the lure rather than the back?? If I'm using DN on plastic baits I just spray it on, but you don't get the same glossy finish. I don't know what the answer is maybe someone else has figured out a solution..
Posted 17 June 2010 - 07:35 PM
My question is what do you do with the baits after you dip them? I paint basically the same way as you but without so much heat drying (I dry each paint shot with a hair dryer but that's all). I can dip them immediately afterward in Dick Nite poly. After dipping, I hang the baits by their lips over newspaper to dry and cure. All the excess finish drips off the tail. The only problem I ever had with moisture cured poly was if I clamped the baits on a lure turner after dipping them. Then, the excess poly could not drip off. If there was a little too much on the bait, the rotation kept it on the bait while the finish skinned over and the excess would slosh back and forth under the poly skin - wrinkling the paint underneath.
I've been satisfied with a single dip in Dick Nite on bass baits. When I occasionally want 2 dips, I wait at least 24 hrs, more often a couple of days between dips. When I have tried a shorter interval, I sometimes had problems with blistering and wrinkling. You didn't name a brand of polyurethane and that can have an effect. I've tried a couple of brands and Dick Nite has the lowest viscosity of the ones I've tried. So the excess drips off more quickly than other brands I've tried, and that seems to be a good thing to me.
Edited by BobP, 17 June 2010 - 07:37 PM.
Posted 17 June 2010 - 09:29 PM
I have experienced wrinkling problems while using Pelucid initially, what I found stopped the problem was ensuring that what was under the paint was good and dry before applying paint, then ensuring the paint was good and heat set. I found I could heat set the top layer all I wanted but the bottom would still be a little wet and hence the baits wrinkled. I dont know whether you have tried this or whether it helps, but it worked for me. Sort a whole bait heat setting approach.
The other thing I recall reading somewhere (I think createx app guide) is to be careful heat setting before the paint has had a chance to air dry. Logic was that the paint would skin over and appear dry, however, underneath would not and further application of heat would continue to harden the top layer and reduce the ability of the bottom layers to dry and heat set. This is why I think I was having troubles and after ensuring every step was dry and set if req, the problem went away.
Hope this helps
Posted 18 June 2010 - 01:12 AM
Good points about the letting the Createx air-drying a bit before the heat-setting, and I think Bob is onto to the crux of your problem too, talking about the thickness of the DN and skimming over without drying beneath, a problem that probably won't surface when dipping into fresh and very thin DN, but happens more as the DN thickens a bit with age. After DN has begun to cure and thicken a bit in your container it flashes many times faster than it does when fresh, compounding your problems.
David Sullivan and I often discuss topics that recur on TU and this is one of them: we simply wonder why more people don't brush on DN, as it brushes on so easily, (so much faster than epoxy, that it is really a different technique), while allowing us to control the amount we use on the bait, which dipping does not. There are those who are happy dipping it, and I say more power to them; the same with those who spray it and have no problems, or who have learned techniques to avoid any problems.
If you dip DN, then you are accepting that the thickness of each coat is dictated by the thickness of the product in your dipping jar. By brushing DN, you can control the amount of clearcoat you apply and exactly where it goes. But it is going to be very difficult to avoid the wrinkling problem without changing your application method, or, taking steps to keep your DN in much fresher condition. While plastic rattlebaits may be a bit more difficult to heatset and then clear with DN, I've done enough of them to expect no problems when I do.
Edited by Lure--Prof, 18 June 2010 - 01:17 AM.
Posted 18 June 2010 - 10:31 AM
I would add a reply, but Dino and BobP have said it all. Eventhough Dino and I brush, and Bob dips his baits, and others spray, to each his own. I think the basic solution to the problem of wrinkling is to keep each coat of paint as thin as possible, allow to air dry for a short time, heat set well, and try to keep the DN as thin and workable as possible. Good luck to you.
Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:22 PM
I learned someting about this just last week end.
I paint and dry well with hair dryer each layer and have not had problems by brushing on, DN like you explained.
Last week end while while brushing on DN I dropped a topwater bait into the little cup of DN.
I took it out and let it drain and dry and thought it would be fine.
Where the bait had been submurged in the DN it had some wrinkles, but not where I had brushed it on in areas that did not get submerged only brushed.
Here is what I think I learned -
1) A lot of DN needs a lot of moisture to cure - That is, the more the DN the more moisture it needs to cure - it probably gets some of that moisture from the underlying paint regardless of how well you think you have dried it. We think it is dry and it looks dry, but of course it is not really dry for days. Some moisture may be there for some time and the thicker DN coating sucks that moisture out.
2) this does not happen with metal baits, because the moisture has not soaked into the bait and drys quite well with a hair dryer.
3) brushing DN and not dropping it in the poold of DN does not cause the problem.
Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:54 PM
I haven't been using DN nearly as long as most of you, but I believe the humidity level has a lot to do with the way it cures. Like BobP I can dip my baits immediately after painting. I also dry each coat of paint right after spraying and don't wait the few minutes before hitting it with a heat gun set on low. One thing we have here in East Texas is plenty of humidity and the only time I have had any problems with DN wrinkling is when I used a solvent based spray paint (white) out of a rattle can to base coat a lure. Almost positive that was an incompatibility issue between the different solvents in the DN and the rattle can paint since it's never happened again. About the only problem I have with DN is the storage problems. And once again I can't help but think that is also because of the high humidity levels we have here.
Posted 23 June 2010 - 04:35 PM
Just wanted to update you guys. I found a solution to my problem. Using the same steps as I posted but, after I finished painting I sprayed a coat of gloss createx clear on the baits.......heat set with the hairdryer.......worked like a charm. Every bait since has been perfect. Thanks for all the help.....Cliff
Posted 24 June 2010 - 01:46 AM
When you brush DN on the bait do you put on your drying wheel or do you just hang up to dry? I haven't tried brushing on DN but will probably experiment with this process with a few baits to see which I like best. Thanks Dean.
Posted 25 June 2010 - 01:24 PM
L-P, the reason I dip is several fold. First, I know the bait will be coated entirely, every time. Second, I think dipping gets the maximum usable amount of DN on the bait in a single application (and I want to apply DN only once). Third, it's fast and there's no clean up: dip it, hang it, done. However you apply DN so that you're happy, without problems, is fine. I don't think there's a wrong way as long as the results are good. My current batch of DN is about 9 months old, no problems so far.
Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:54 PM
RayburnGUY,(or anyone else using DN without any problems) what's the average humidity in the workspace where you use your DN?
I occasionally have wrinkling issues, and I'm trying to narrow down where I'm having the problem. (I work in my garage that I've finished/airconditioned-keeping the temp around 75 and humidity about 50-60%)
Edited by motomania, 27 June 2010 - 11:54 PM.
Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:22 AM
I don't have a humidity meter so no real way of knowing what the average humidity is inside where I work on my baits, but I'm pretty sure it's higher than the 50-60% your talking about. Port Arthur Texas is the third most humid city in the United States with an average humidity of 77% and I'm not too far from there. Humidity levels of close to 100% are not uncommon around here.
When you say you "occasionally" have wrinkling problems are you doing anything different on those lures? Same base coat, same paint, heat setting, applying DN the same way, etc.? If your using different paints are you sure they're compatible? That's the problem I ran into the one time DN wrinkled on me. I base coated with a rattle can primer and the solvents in the rattle can paint reacted with the solvents in the DN. Since going back to strictly water based paints I've had no more problems with wrinkling.
Posted 29 June 2010 - 09:15 AM
I strictly use Createx, as I originally used a rattle can base coat, but found I had issues there.
As I read more info here, and on other sites; I can't help but think that I might just be spraying the color down too thick in one shot. I get great results, quick; but I think I may get a bit too eager when painting. As when I clear over, I occasioanally get wrinkles.
Slow heat setting sure does help; but looking at some of my wrinkled baits last night; I think I may have answered my own question above. Color too thick in one shot, not enough dry time/heat set before clearing.
Posted 29 June 2010 - 06:36 PM
You may have very well answered your own question. One thing that has remained constant about paint for as long as I can remember is that it's better to shoot several light coats than it is a couple heavy coats. Since I started thinning my paint it will tell you immediately if your spraying too thick of a coat. Spray too much thin paint and it will start to run pretty quickly. This is one way I sort of forced myself to spray thin coats. If you spray your paint too thick and then hit it with a heat source it will form a skin on top that will be dry and the paint under the skin will still be wet.
Posted 29 June 2010 - 06:43 PM
WORD!!! (I've waited forever to be able to say that!)
Posted 30 June 2010 - 08:53 AM
Dang! I just get too eager to see the final results. Gotta slow it down I guess.
Not to stray too far off topic, but I hate to start another DN thread. But I have another question:
I have a crank I've dipped a few times in DN, it looks GREAT! But..................... there are a few tiny bubbles (pin hole sized) on the back of the crank I'd like to get rid of. Dipping seems to leave such a thin coat, that they're not going anywhere, so I thought about lightly sanding them down, and re-dipping to try and smooth them out. (they're not real visible due to the color, you can really just feel them)
Any suggestions on if this is a bad idea or not? If it's o.k., what grit paper to start with, etc, etc.
Posted 30 June 2010 - 02:12 PM
Lightly sanding the finished top coat is fine. I do it anytime I have blemishes in the top coat. I don't use anything coarser than a 400 grit when sanding out imperfections. And since getting some 600 grit that is what I use. Just be careful and go slowly. If you sand all the way through the top coat and down into the paint then you've got more problems. So far I haven't come up with a good way to repair damaged paint other than to start all over.
Posted 30 June 2010 - 02:40 PM
Awesome! Thanks again Rayburn, that's kinda where my thoughts were going, but I just wanted to bounce it off those with more experience.