Edited by goughy, 09 May 2009 - 08:37 PM.
didn't finnish it
Any homemade lure making machines?
133 replies to this topic
Posted 09 May 2009 - 08:35 PM
Could anyone tell us if Redg8r and Vodkaman have finnished their duplicator machines? Thanks Chris.
Edited by goughy, 09 May 2009 - 08:37 PM.
Posted 10 May 2009 - 12:20 AM
Sorry Goughy, I keep getting side tracked onto other projects. Also, had one or three problems, but I will get back to the dup project soon.
Posted 11 May 2009 - 11:07 AM
what kind of finish does this give? would the finish be smoother using a router with say.. 3/8" dia bit or smaller being perpindicular to the the wood? I just started throwing it on solidworks.... but the "honey do list" is growing with the nice weather.
Posted 11 May 2009 - 04:30 PM
Of the duplicator machines published so far, are Redg8r’s saw cutter and the router bit. The router bit can be divided into two classes, end on and side cutting. The saw cutter has been proven by Red (nice one), also the router side cut has also been proven, but I cannot find the link, probably in the wrong forum, please post if you can find the link, it more than deserves to be included in this thread.
My design is basically end on router. It may or may not work. BUT, my system has been designed such that I can switch to router side on, or even saw cutter, Red style. I do see problems with the end router system.
Each system has its advantages and disadvantages. The main consideration (after safety) is surface finish. How much work is involved in reaching a finish that is ready for sealer. Other considerations are tool wear. So lets consider the one at a time.
One of the BIG problems is the initial cut into the stock. The router cutter, end on or side cutting, has a large volume of wood to remove, due to the diameter of the cutter (1/2 inch is very convenient). This inevitably has to be manually controlled, otherwise the stock is likely to be kicked out. Using the saw cutter, removes a much smaller section of stock (width of blade). Plus one revolution of the saw cutter involves 40 cutting operations per revolution, at 12,000 revs per second.
A router cutter only has two cutting strokes per revolution, at 12,000 rpm, this is 24,000 cutting operations per minute. The saw blade is making 480,000 cuts per minute. So tool wear is greatly reduced with the saw blade, also the cost of a saw blade is vastly cheaper than a router cutter.
Reds reluctance to publish the saw blade cutter, is largely one of safety. The blade is 4” diameter, giving a rotational velocity of 140mph or 63m/s. Try to imagine 63 metres per second and the damage that could be done. Any disintegration of the blade will cause catastrophic damage to human tissue, long before you could possibly react. Even at a diameter of ½” of the router cutter, the cutter velocity is 8 metres per second, still enough to drag you into the cutter and do severe damage long before you even feel the pain. Safety is the BIG issue regarding duplicator machines. So, if I am taking too long to design and build this machine, I hope that you will try to understand. I have an over cautious respect for machinery and so should you.
Goonsdad, as for surface finish, the saw cutter and the end router should give similar results, a helical system of grooves. With a 2:1 ratio of cutter advancement to stock rotation, this will result in a groove pitch of 34 thou’ or 0.876mm, using a threaded base with 14.5 threads per inch, a stock bar that I purchased. Using a side on router cut should reduce the ripple, of the same pitch, but will require more post operation work at the nose and tail, due to the cutter diameter. So it is basically a swings and rounderbouts situation.
At the moment, my favorite solution is the saw blade cutter, with its 40 cuts per revolution and its cheap replacement cost. But my first proto will be the router end cut. But easily adaptable to the saw blade method.
After the initial duplicator design, comes the automatic stock feed. I am not even thinking about that at this time. Red is way ahead of me in that respect, as I know he is working on such an animal, so, much respect to Red and I wish him success.
Designing a duplicator for complex lure shapes rather than concentric shapes, is not rocket science, but does require a lot of fore thought and planning. Anyone contemplating the project, feel free to contact me and I will help all that I can with your concept of the machine.
Posted 11 May 2009 - 06:59 PM
My saliva glands go nuts with the thoughts of a bloody mary from some neat bar up near Spart Wisconsin. ........ sorry lost my train of thought.
I agree that the intial cut with the side cutting would have to be thought out well. I was thinking that if you had the "pattern" have a slope on the "feed in" to the body so that it was a gradual cut versus just dropping it into the body and having your wood "shoot your eye out" when it popped out. Obviously that is time wasted ... time is money.. money is competition. Gotta go dinner bell just rang:twocents:
Posted 11 May 2009 - 08:47 PM
The time saving is nice, but it is more about repeatability and consistency between each lure body. Once you can produce identical bodies, the only variable will be wood density variations and that is manageable.
Posted 12 May 2009 - 02:23 AM
Vodkaman have you looked at the arbortech blades, theylist that their blades fit 100mm and 115mm (4 and 4 1/2 inc) angle grinders. They might tell you what speed they are rated for also.
Posted 12 May 2009 - 03:09 AM
A ferrocious animal, a chainsaw on a wheel. My brother used them on his chainsaw carvings to do the smaller detail.
I don't think the finish would be good enough, but I will try one, if I do go the angle grinder route.
Posted 12 May 2009 - 03:21 AM
Awe inspiring machine!!!!!!
I pretty much get the way the duplicater works but a couple of questions
I was wondering how you get the tracer and saw blade to travel up and down? (probably a threaded rod of some sort) then it looked like you release it to travel back up in its final resting place before you took the blank out. How did you manage to release it from the threads(or whatever it was that you used to get it to move in the z axis) to slide it up and down
Posted 12 May 2009 - 04:14 AM
Mine is designed to cut in both directions. When the carrier reaches the end stop, a microswitch automatically cuts the feed to the cutter and stops the travel motor and reverses it, ready for the next pass.
On the reverse pass, the stock direction is reversed also, so the cutter is still correctly cutting (climb milling).
As for the other part of the question, there are many ways to transfer the stylus movement to the cutter, but that is up to you. That is the design part, the invention part. Redg8r shows his method, so that is a starting point to get the brain working.
Posted 12 May 2009 - 04:14 AM
I did some looking late last night at the terrco duplicaters they look like they would work for making lures. It looks like the vertical router type except it has two turn tables
that rotate together so you can get a full 360 cut .Alot of gun guys use them for custom replacement stocks.
I would put the link here but I'm not sure how, sorry.
Posted 12 May 2009 - 05:17 AM
Yes, that would work, but rather labor intensive, here is a link to the very poor video: F-200 Video
My aim is to insert the stock, start the machine off and return when finished. Maybe even operating three machines, so when the third machine is started, the first has finished. One can dream!
Posted 12 May 2009 - 03:56 PM
A-ha I see full blown production!!!
I think alot of us would be happy just being able to turn out a duplicate blank and are'nt worried about speed although even hand loading blanks would speed it up alot
do you think it would work with a wood lathe on very low rpm with tracer wheel connected to hinge thats connected to a ginder with a saw blade.
so you would put in a 20" piece of wood connected to short piece of square tubing then your original in the end
so as your lathe turns very slowly you can guide the grinder and tracer by hand
then maybe after you first lure you slide the grinder down a ways lock it make another repeat until you have a spindle with 3-5 lure blanks on it
think it would work???
Posted 12 May 2009 - 08:05 PM
PS, it could work, but their are a few considerations.
First the lathe stock must turn at the same speed as the master. As you feed the cutter into the stock, the tracer stylus is going to move in and out at the speed of the lathe. I don't know what the slowest speed of the lathe is, but 2 revs per sec or 120 revs per minute seems to be the maximum for this type of duplicator. I determined this by viewing all the other duplicators out there.
Second. As each copy is made, at each end, the stock is reduced to a small diameter, I am planning on 6mm dia, this might have to be increased, but we will see. So, if your stock is 20" long, it would be like turning a 1/4" dia dowel, 20" long. It would flex under the load. It would be better if you could feed the stock through the chuck and keep the grinder near the chuck, but not sure if you can do that sort of thing.
Yes, it has been considered as a next stage. It would be really nice to sell a couple hundred lures per month, this would mean that I don't need to go back to my office job. But if a major player comes to me and requests 10,000 pieces per month, I have a plan to accomodate. Now wouldn't that be nice. Most unlikely, but you never know.
Posted 12 May 2009 - 11:23 PM
Yes your right the original would be made out of two inch stock with the square pieces left in place the with a piece of square tubing you connect the blank stock so you would have from the motor 2" square stock a piece of 2" I.D. square tubing then your original all rotating on the same chucks.
I am a millwriight by trade and have worked on cnc machines that have the auto feed through the chuck and they can be very complicated to set up and repair although once you get them running they are reliable
one thing we had problems with was the ends of bar stock jamming these machines
because they were to short for the chuck to grab just something to plan for
Posted 13 May 2009 - 04:36 PM
Is it this one? YouTube - Valmistamani vaappusorvi
Posted 14 May 2009 - 05:34 AM
In both videos it looks like they are using a pretty standard 'box' router bit---Interesting!!!!!!!! Never worked as good as that for me.
Sorry about the pic quality.Pete
Posted 29 September 2009 - 07:01 PM
I amy have over look. Is there any plans I can download?/