2 Colors Baits..... Just A General Discussion

[GB GONE]

Just curious as to why all baits are laminated top to bottom vs side-by-side.

I have found myself using a split cup and pouring baits side by side and getting some really nice looking worms, especially in the ribbon tail area.

It might be that production baits have been that way so long that we are programmed to do them that way.

I can tell you this, hand pouring them side-by-side gives you a bait that has no cold cracks and looks different than what the fish see now.

What ya'll think??? (Can you tell I am at work and bored out of my mind!!!???))

Jim

[Bass-Boys]

Jim,

I think you are rite,,its just how its been done..

anything that looks different could be good.

I take it you are pouring a 1 pc.mold

no cold cracks because you are pouring both colors @ the same time

& not one, then the other on top of it.

a picture of a reg lam & a side by side..

with the same bait, same colors, laying beside each other

would help the discussion ,maybe ?

[GB GONE]

I'll see if I have any in the truck. Think they are in the shop though.... I can post later or in a.m. for sure though.

Jim

[onlybass]

Interesting topic. I think it's probably not so much "because that's the way it has always been done" but more because, more often than not, it mimics nature.Generally, wildlife has a darker top/back and lightening of color towards the bottom/belly.

[GB GONE]

Interesting topic. I think it's probably not so much "because that's the way it has always been done" but more because, more often than not, it mimics nature.Generally, wildlife has a darker top/back and lightening of color towards the bottom/belly.

True but how can the fish see the bottom of the bait when it is on the bottom of the lake? Most production baits sink due to the large amount of salt. I get it for swims but worms???

One of the best colors is black blue and I still have not found that in nature. Maybe more are made to catch fisherman than fish?!!!

I tend to think the laminate deal has as much to do with the difference in the 2 colors as it does what the 2 colors are.

Then there are swirls.... They work great many times and black/white is strong.

Just thinking out loud as I have had great success on the side by side laminates...

Jim

[Bass-Boys]

Good points from you both..

The nature thing & laying on the bottom..

now..

some baits track straight in the water,, do you feel some worms & other baits

spin on the retrieve & a side x side ---- or a top bottom my look the same when retrieved if they roll or spin ?

just a thought..

[nova]

I haven't poured many "old school", side by each laminates since I started using a spit cup. I like the way they look. Even in an open mold the results can be interesting.(you have to pour very close to the mold and at right angles to the opening so that one color lays under the other).

www.novalures.com

[MuskyGary]

I don't think it matters to the fish (which way the color is) fishermen are always looking for something different. Look at surface hard baits. The fish only see the bottom but we color the top to sell the lure. Ive been wondering about doing one side clear with glitter in it and the other side with a regular color, sort of making a bait that would work when its sunny or overcast.

Edited August 13, 2010 by MuskyGary

[Piscivorous Pike]

Jim,

You really got me thinking about this, my back ground in fisheries biology is behaviorally orientated. At first I considered the fact that nature has colors stacked vertically in relation to gravity mostly especially with fish, but not always to all of nature. Reptiles are the first exception that comes to mind. I think if we look at brightly colored reef fish we may find examples that work similiar to what you propose, but I am not sure, it needs some research.

I also agree anything new is productive in pressured waters. Somethings I have played with that is related to these behavior quirks are for instance swim baits that have tails that thump vertically instead of side to side. Fish are very efficient in discernment of and stalk prey by vibration. In-Fisherman popularized the verticle thumping jig in the 90's for Musky and Pike and at first I was thinking it was a something new but we know that often wounded fish swim on their sides. Could that be what the trigger is and then it is not new just a different natural response? The verticle thump might mean wounded prey. But more in line to what you are presenting in SW US resevoirs white is a good color on plastics. Maybe because shad are dominant forage but in NW US it turns off trout and pike, maybe because the water is cold enough dying fish lie around a while turning white long before they get fuzzy with fungus and rot. White may be the signal that the meat is bad there and it might mean dinner in the south, who knows?

I say try it and it, if it is a strike trigger then lets try to figure why. You may have a new technique that will be come named after you or Ghost Baits! You hit it on the head to wonder what fish really see though, so little information on that subject.

One thing I do know, I have read only one book that was any good on the subject and it lacked a lot is: What Fish See: Understanding Optics and Color Shifts for Designing Lures and Flies (Available from Amazon) and what we see is not what they see. Water and material change the outcome so much it is not predictable. For instance Nickel and Silver look pretty much the same to above the surface but under water these reflective surfaces shed very different colors. Red, which got a wild fad going on hooks and baits that "bleed" only appears red in shallow water, it is black most of the time! Water clarity whether it is stained or pigmented with colloidal substance has a huge affect on color as does the distance from the object. Just changing the distance from an object can make the color change. Think about that in relation to the size of a strike zone...hmm...

So you have two things to consider. 1) what color does your lure really look like in the water you are using it and 2) does the design of side by side work to trigger strikes.

To test the latter which will be the real key as to whether the idea is worth pursuing is whether in various waters, species and colors do you get a discernable advantage of more strikes with the side by side. Whether it is how the color is presented opposed to what the color is.

You really have got something there that needs to be looked at closely. Good luck, maybe you could get some folks to test these in different situations. I am very curious to know how that would work.

PP

Edited August 13, 2010 by Piscivorous Pike

[tigerfire]

Pictures, pictures, pictures!!!! Actually, I just want to see some of your work. You guys are great pourers!

I think it's all timing. Sometimes it doesn't matter what you throw, you will get a bite. Those are the rare moments. But at times, color matters. So does the pattern matter? Hmmmmmmmmm??????

[Kajan]

Well I am not as experienced with sweet water fishing as I am with salt water, coastal salt water mainly. But colours do matter, and laminates do matter. The horizontal lam when using transparent colours, gives you a 3rd colour as it falls from the surface to the bottom, and alot of strikes are in the fall zone, so the fish see these colours as the mixed colour often. But on the opeque' colours, I think the darker top colour darkens/shadows the bottom colour. I have seen where 2 or 3 brand lures, same colour, only one caught fish, same type lure, just one I never ever caught a fish on, was the Bass assassin eel, flat bodied, lam is flat. It was more or less like the lure GB was talkin about, and I tried hookin the lure horizontal and vertical.

All in all, I guess with a vertical laminate in an opeque' colour would depend on which side the fish was on, would dictate whether it would bite or not.

[kbbaits]

I remember someone telling me he was riging his hook in the bait so the werm colors were side by side, He said the werm was diff + the color pattern . maybe we should start riging werms upside down,backwards, in the tail, on there side? what do you think about that?

[carolinamike]

Jim, almost all commercial baits are laminated side to side. I know it always comes out top and bottom, but actually what happens is the top of the bait is on one half of the mold and the bottom of the bait is on the other half. When this takes place with a large machine, as the plastic enters the molds the two colors run across what's known as a laminating paddle. This actually splits the colors off, then being it 10 cavities or 100 cavities, if all adjustments are right, then it will laminate the entire length of the mold, around 30 inches. If you have a bait such as a shad body and you want to laminate top and bottom, then this is referred to as a cross over laminate. The laminating paddle runs the entire length of the mold. Say if you're doing black and white, the black will come in on one half of the mold and the white will come in on the other. They actually do not laminate until the plastic actually starts into the cavity of the bait. If you're thinking well, is there 2 injection holes going into the bait?, yes there is. This process is a little more tricky. Everything has to be exact. If one color enters the cavity before the other then that's the color the bait's going to be. The timing, temperature and pressure have all got to be in sync in order to achieve this type of laminate. You can go back to the thread, I think it was "large scale production mold", and it will show a normal laminating paddle. I would put a picture up of a cross over laminating mold, but they don't belong to me, they belong to another company. So you understand my hands are tied on posting a picture of this. Before I got these molds, I often wondered how the swim baits were done with top and bottom, but it makes real good sense when you think about a swim bait or a shad body tail, the bait has to be on it's side in the mold for easy releasing, so the cross over laminate is a way to get top and bottom and the bait still laying sideways in the mold. To laminate say, just a regular worm, with a side by side laminate instead of top and bottom you would have a real hard time with curly tail worms and other appendages because the worm would have to be turned up in the mold if that makes any sense. In other words with the worm laying flat on the table with the top up, you would have to turn it up on its side, then the curly tail wouldn't be flat, it would actually be a milled out cavity in the mold. I hope this is not too confusing. But that's how they do a top and a bottom laminate.

Edited August 14, 2010 by carolinamike

[GB GONE]

Thanks for that Mike. It does make sense. Kbbaits... go for it. I see pros reverse rigging creatures and off set rigging worms a lot. Anything to make the bait look injured or out of the ordinary may get the strikes.

Seems if this is a "good" idea, only hand pour techniques would be able to produce the full bait as I am doing them.

I have several colors done for a shot I will post in the gallery tomorrow.

Jim

[RayburnGuy]

Not trying to take away from the discussion of laminates or colors, but to add another iron to the fire, has anyone thought about why bass, or any fish for that matter, eat worms in the first place? Worms don't live in water. They are land dwelling creatures that should only, on occasion, get washed into a lake or river system during periods of heavy rain. For fish that live in mostly shallow water this might not be an unusual occurrence, but for fish that live in deeper, offshore waters this should be a rarity.

RG

[Piscivorous Pike]

Not trying to take away from the discussion of laminates or colors, but to add another iron to the fire, has anyone thought about why bass, or any fish for that matter, eat worms in the first place? Worms don't live in water. They are land dwelling creatures that should only, on occasion, get washed into a lake or river system during periods of heavy rain. For fish that live in mostly shallow water this might not be an unusual occurrence, but for fish that live in deeper, offshore waters this should be a rarity.

RG

Fish do not have any imagination. The "worms" do not look like worms except to us. What trigger strikes is a combination of factors, color, shape, size and most important the vibration and pressure wave that motion puts out.

Sluggo look like...What? It imitates a fish because of its irratic retrieve actions and profile shape and likely the worms imitate long forage which would describe bait fish, amphibians and large invertebrates. All the additives like scent, density (micro bubbles or salt), sound (hooks, clackers and rattles), sight from color and size added together created a collection of things that also can be found with, near or by the real forage so the fish is triggered or rather recognizes the probability that it is food.

I see a lot of work by manufacturers and craftsman to make hard body, jointed swim baits swim. To us they look like a fish swimming through water. To a bass it doesnt. It rattles, makes noise from joints and hooks (fish move silenty through the water) and the side to side motion, well, they cannot see it; they feel it. It definately cannot feel like a fish swimming because it moves as a reaction to the water when retireved but in the case of live critter the water moves as a result of the action of the animal. Those pressure waves linger a few minutes and a fish can track them like a blood hound a scent. Soft swim baits that swim with tail movement do best when they roll side to side and wiggle the back end side to side, the same action as a rapala. Don't know what it acatually represents but since rapala, circa 1935, that motion has been a strike trigger.

I am winded, but the short answer is plastic worms create a group of actions, sight, sound, smell, size and shape that added up create a strike reaction. The fish in no way thinks any lure looks like this or that. They dont think, they react. So it is the amount and type of triggers working together that cause the fish to bite.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Piscivorous Pike

[RayburnGuy]

Thanks for the biology lesson Piscivorous Pike. I've read about the different triggering aspects that cause game fish to attack a lure, but never really thought about it in the way in which you described. We always hear about things like "matching the hatch" and using lures that imitate live bait and I suppose it's easy to assume the lures we fish are doing just that instead of simply sending out signals that tell a game fish that it's an easy meal no matter what the game fish thinks it truly is. Thanks again. Your post was very informative.

Ben

[earthworm77]

Not trying to take away from the discussion of laminates or colors, but to add another iron to the fire, has anyone thought about why bass, or any fish for that matter, eat worms in the first place? Worms don't live in water. They are land dwelling creatures that should only, on occasion, get washed into a lake or river system during periods of heavy rain. For fish that live in mostly shallow water this might not be an unusual occurrence, but for fish that live in deeper, offshore waters this should be a rarity.

RG

their opportunists

[GB GONE]

Posted a couple shots in the gallery but not the best pics. If you hold a bait up, you can see where the colors are side by side down the full length of the bait.

Now for some more "on water testing" and to finalize the swirl baits out of the hand injector project.

Jim

[smalljaw]

I have found that if fish are active color doesn't seem to be a factor but other times it makes a huge difference. I was out fishing with a friend a long time ago and we found an area that was loaded with alewives, I was using a Manns Shadow in a color that I thought was close and I had some strikes but nothing I could set the hook on but my friend was killing them!! He was using the same bait but his was a bright chartreuse, I couldn't figure it out but it worked and then he said something that sticks with me today, he said that fish are naturally programmed to pick off the sick, wounded, or dying forage and when there is a lot of bait in the water the fish will key on something different that makes it look vulnerable, and that is why colors like chartreuse and bubblegum will catch fish, because they are differnt enough that it may be sick or dying and make an easy meal. Now I don't know how much of that is true since I'm not a fish but it makes sense and taking that approach has worked when other thing didn't but at the same time a closer matched bait has produced when other colors have failed, especially in gin clear water, that being said, a laminate bait done differently may end up being an awesome way to trigger strikes but like anything else, until fish can talk and tell us exactly what makes them bite it'll still be guessing game.

[jesse1378]

I don't think it matters to the fish (which way the color is) fishermen are always looking for something different. Look at surface hard baits. The fish only see the bottom but we color the top to sell the lure. Ive been wondering about doing one side clear with glitter in it and the other side with a regular color, sort of making a bait that would work when its sunny or overcast.

i did that a few months ago...clear plastic with blue glitter and the other half is black. my stick mold has a small opening so its hard for me to pour 2 colors. they endup being mainly one color with a "belly" of another color that i pour first.

Edited August 16, 2010 by jesse1378

[mark poulson]

Aaron Martens, who is color blind, says he picks his plastics with contrast in mind. He thinks the fish pick up on the contrasting colors, not so much on the specific colors, a lot of the time.

So whether a lure is laminated top to bottom, or side to side, might not be that important, as long as it has contrasting colors to attract the fish.

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

Just curious as to why all baits are laminated top to bottom vs side-by-side.

I have found myself using a split cup and pouring baits side by side and getting some really nice looking worms, especially in the ribbon tail area.

It might be that production baits have been that way so long that we are programmed to do them that way.

I can tell you this, hand pouring them side-by-side gives you a bait that has no cold cracks and looks different than what the fish see now.

What ya'll think??? (Can you tell I am at work and bored out of my mind!!!???))

Jim

When I first read the topic I was thinking injection rather than hand pouring and I was thinking mechanics rather than choice of color location. For instance I tend to want to design a mold that has the top of the bait in one half and the bottom of the bait in the other half because when laminate injecting it works better to do it side by side rather than top to bottom. Now I see that wasn't your question at all.

[Bassking24]

Jim-

I read your topic and have been pouring worms, senko's, etc for quite a while like you are talking. I had a couple pots made that have a steel plate basically, welded down the middle. I wanted to make red shad, and this was a way I thought would work best for hand pouring. When pouring, the colors go into the mold side-by-side (they start off separate, but by the time they hit the mold they've come together), but also 'blend' / 'swirl' or 'mix', whatever you want to call it. They come out great, and I can't make enough of these worms I make. I've done several other colors, such as bama bug, a green shad, blue shad, black shad (black & pearl white) just to name a few, possibilities are endless. Anyway, I think it's a little different than the 'big boys' laminates, and I can attest they catch the hell out of fish! Plus, custom hand pours that are different than anything else out there, catches fisherman as well as fish............just my 2 cents on your topic.

Ed

[Bassking24]

Just posted a picture in the gallery of my Red Shad.....