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Need Help On Wakebait Characteristics/dynamics
14 replies to this topic
Posted 02 November 2010 - 12:43 PM
I have a problem that I have been trying to figure out and for the life of me I dont know why my wakebaits do this. Lets see if I can explain...
On all my wake baits I have made I cannot get them to swim with a "kick" from the tail section. By this I meant that I want the second section to have that pronounced kicking action that you see on most mainline baits. Instead they want to "roll" much like an AC minnow. When they do this it seems almost like they dont even have a joint as the second section just rolls with the first. its almost like the pivot point is from the nose to the tail and my bait is a pendulum rocking in that same motion. And when they "roll" they are not blowing out. I can crank them to dive they just violently rock from side to side. I dont really know how to explain it. Does that make sense?
All of my wakers thus far have been 2 piece baits. I have played with everything I can think of from the actual bait size (length, width, shape etc) to lip shape, angle, total weight of the bait and weight placement. I have changed the tow eye locations and hook placement but I just cannot figure out what the deal is. I can make crankbaits that work great and swimbaits without a lip or ones that have a deeper dive angle and they work. I just seem to have a problem with wakers... Any help is aprreciated!
Posted 02 November 2010 - 01:39 PM
Lip should be wider than it is deep. Take a look at the wake shad fron strike king. Pretty good side to side wobble. The lip is almost twice the width of the bait and not very deep. Lip angle also works best at 90 deg. Hope this helps!
Posted 02 November 2010 - 01:40 PM
I don't know if this will help or not. I have a wooden bait that will do the same thing. Mine has screw eyes that seperate the two halves and if I open up the distance between the two halves it greatly changes the action for the better. It's like there needs to be turbulance in this area to make the back half react against the front half.
I have also had good luck by making the back half a little bit larger in dia. than the front half, so that it can get in "clean water". Just my two cents worth. Musky Glenn
Posted 02 November 2010 - 02:35 PM
Thanks guys for the replies...
@ Vandalizer.... I have tried this in a coffin shapped bill but not a totally square bill. After researching this AM I saw another post that gave me a few ideas but I am skeptical as I have tried short fat coffin bills that extend beyond the sides of the bait.
@ Musky Glenn.... I have had similar results on non billed swimbaits but I have 0 "kick" on my wake baits. the "yaw" I think its called is what it out of wack. The bait roll thus no kicking action.
This last one I made I took a 3:16 wake JR and outlined it... general shape and bill but something I do screws em up!
I appreciate the replies and please keep em coming!
Posted 02 November 2010 - 07:09 PM
Can you post a pic in this thread, I did not find the two piece in your gallery. This might help identify the problem.
Posted 03 November 2010 - 10:23 AM
Add sections! In my experience making swimbaits 4 segments is a minimum if your wanting realistic tail kicking action. Ballasted correctly of course. With only two segments I would imagine you get a wobble like a jointed rapala. What are the specs...weight length ect. On your bait?
Posted 03 November 2010 - 10:52 AM
@ Nitro.... You are absolutley right if you have a non billed bait. But from all my testing the more joints you have on a billed bait hinders it. I am looking for a hard thump from the tail at low speeds and without a bill or with multiple segments i cannot achieve this. If I am wrong please let me know but these are just my findings.
@ Dave.... Here is a pic of a couple i have been playing tieh as of recent with a few of the lips i have tried. I can send you the other ones but they have either been butchered soo badly they are in the scrap pile or I have painted them for the practice.
Posted 03 November 2010 - 11:41 AM
This is a four segment swimbait that I typically make as a slow sink but modified to act as a wake bait... It's 6 inches...got mad one day I screwed up a clear coat and used it as a tester
Posted 03 November 2010 - 11:49 AM
Let me add too this is a Shad style bait...as the lakes in my area have this as the main forage...if you wanted a trout style or dying bass a wider lip would give a less tight action.
Posted 03 November 2010 - 11:58 AM
You're lures look good!
Try to think of a wake bait as a floating crank gone bad.
Years ago, I "made" a wakebait on the water by cutting the bill on an old BPS Realistic jointed minnow until it was almost even with the bottom of the lure. It only projected down as much as the thickness of the jaws of the dikes I used to cut it off.
It was a floater, that dove to 3' on a fast retrieve. The bill was oval shaped, and wider than the lure's head, so what was left projected past the lure.
It swam great, and had a lot of wiggle.
Looking at your lures, I see several possiblities.
First, as was said, you need the bill to be pretty close to 90 degrees.
Second, again as was said, you need the bill to be wider than the lure. The wider the bill, the wider the wobble. Think of the bill's width as a lever against the lure body. The lure's length acts as a stabilizing lever that you have to overcome to get it to wiggle side to side.
For a wake bait, the bill's bottom edge can be flat, since you're not worried about deflection off stuff.
And lastly, as was said, a looser joint will enhance the swimming action.
I hope this helps.
Posted 03 November 2010 - 01:26 PM
First off, the baits look great. The work that has gone into them is clearly visible.
The only thing that I can think of that is preventing the tail from kicking, is the tow eye location. Close to the lip, it is located for maximum action. I can imagine an agressive action from the front section, but the tail section cannot follow it and so it just kind of folds in the middle, with the tip of the tail hardly moving.
I think that you need to reduce the action of the front section, by moving the tow eye forward, away from the lip. The vortices from the lip will still be strong and travel down the sides of the lure. The reduced action of the front section will allow the rear section time to 'kick' out more, under the influence of the vortices from the wide lip.
It would be easy to test this idea without having to modify the bait, by taping a loop of wire to the nose, a bit like an eye on your fishing pole. Still tying to the original tow eye (don't want to lose the creation). Try different tow positions, their will be an optimum eye location for the best 'kick'. This is just opinion based on theory, take it or leave it.
I like the bottom square lip in the pic, for this lure.
Posted 03 November 2010 - 05:38 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys means a lot!
But I will move the tow eye up Dave and see what happens. These things are like pin cusions already and its super easy to fix so no worries moving it. And actually the bill behind the top lures tail sections gives the best action just in front of that bottom bill you like but the yaw is still too much for my liking.
Posted 07 November 2010 - 03:20 PM
I have noticed that the further the line tie is away from the bill the less "roll" you will get. Try the line tie right in the nose and the bill up to an inch back. Also I place the weight in the rear section right by the hinge. Far forward as possible. I always start with a bigger bill and shave it down as I test until i get the desired action. Also, putting a bend in the lip will give your bait a vigorous head wobble.. not roll. Hopefully this helps. I went through this when I was starting to build wakers to.. then I realized some of the most successful wakebaits (MS Slammer and AC Minnow) have a very pronounced "roll". u might wanna give that puppy a spin... roll up a whopper!
Posted 07 November 2010 - 10:43 PM
Just from looking at the bait I have a theory. I have made many baits similar to the one you are making. I never did achieve the large wake and tail kick I wanted with that hinge design. It does work, but if you really want a ton of slow speed action you need to give the tail section more freedom. I started by looking at the rapala jointed floating minnow. That bait has serious action! Its more rounded, made of very light material (balsa), and has a very free moving joint. lots of space in between sections and only two screw eye attachment. Once I keyed in on some of those concepts my wake baits went from ehhh... to holy sh*t! For me, I had a lot more trouble with taller, thin baits, with tight joints.
Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:45 AM
On jointed swim baits, a loose tail section is key to good swimming action, too. The other joints should be loose, but the tail needs to be even looser.