CNC Molds N Stuff Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 I would like to add... in my opinion from watching the video on Bear's site its really not that fast. I suspect an experienced hand injector with a couple extra large injectors could nearly double that speed for injecting by hand from a Presto Pot. They would have to stop to clean injectors, but if they had four or five or more of them they would be prety hard to beat with the machine. I would like to see a video of somebody who has really got it down injecting as quickly as they can. Now, if you use molds with clamping screws demolding time would be slower, but I use bar clamps and its pretty darn fast. Just my opinion from observing a single video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 I disagree and doubt highly he is copying any technology that has not already been copied. The injection machine has been around in many forms for many years prior to Bear's model. Del has spoken of small scale ones prior to Bear even being in business. All the technology has been available for years. I am all for an injection machine that works on all molds but am against hijacking this post discussing Bear's machine. Jim there may have been the technology for years; but the demand to make one avaiable and cheap enough just didnt go hand in hand. just beacuse anyone can pour/inject baits doenst mean they are creative enough to make a business of it. lots of people doing this but not alot of people could afford to run an injection machine. i could use one and probably mcut my time down on making laminates. but by last years sales i am not going to invest 4000.00 right now to make roughly 27-2800.00 in laminate baits i can do by hand injection. if they money appeared in my checking account tomorrow i probably would still buy molds before the injection machine!! just my opinion!! aside from POwer worm listed you guys forgot the most important thing to people making injection machines. Liability Insurance. its bad enough for hand injected molds and hand injectors, but you talk about a machine with pressure and hot plastic on it the whole times its on? theres not to many people that will insure you for this and the ones that do comes at a very very high price. Sure someone can get by with out insurance but once you do that and someone gets hurt your FINISHED done and finacualy(sp) ruined. also to add to what powerworm said about affordable" affordable for who? the garage guy, the small business that just plays at night or a full time business? if your a full time bait business then you go with a real one Like a Zorn. while the money might kick someone in the butt and we all dont like to spend money, but if your running a real bait company full time and actually making a liveing ( not adding to your income) then get a good one. for a garage guy that has 2-4 k laying around and doesnt mind kicking 4+ plus in for a semi hobby it could be worth it. and there are guys who do that, I know guys that spend thousands and made there own and they dont sell the baits they just tinker or there own use, but they are independantly wealthy to and have extreamly good paying full time jobs. even with a zorn machine you still have to buy molds the the spending never stops.the bottom line is what do you want to do and how fast you want to go. I still say pouring single color stiks out of a pot is faster than injecting them, both come down to one thing, MOLDS and how many do you have? Delw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 Sure someone can get by with out insurance but once you do that and someone gets hurt your FINISHED done and finacualy(sp) ruined. Agreed. One accident and he is getting his pants sued off. Going through the process of UL approved is to costly for a small deal. The risk must be worth teh reward. On another note, if you watch the video, the individual running the machine does not have safety glasses on or a face shield. Lots of faith in the tubing/connections I guess. I know there isn't much pressure but accidents do happen. I'd have my arms covered as well. Even if you have liability insurance, you can't get your skin back from 350 degree plastic burns. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) Agreed. One accident and he is getting his pants sued off. Going through the process of UL approved is to costly for a small deal. The risk must be worth teh reward. On another note, if you watch the video, the individual running the machine does not have safety glasses on or a face shield. Lots of faith in the tubing/connections I guess. I know there isn't much pressure but accidents do happen. I'd have my arms covered as well. Even if you have liability insurance, you can't get your skin back from 350 degree plastic burns. Jim the video on you tube I saw a few months ago, used heat exchangers, the plasic from the pots is not hot, it only gets hot in the heat exchanger, so the tubing aand lines wont hurt anyone if they break or leak. there was also one wth pressure pots that heated the plastic that will have pressure and hot plastic in the lines, thats an old zorn molds design(pressure pot one) I am sure he got the prints from the same guy who gave me the prints years ago. I got the prints after we had made a few of them( customers did I just made them parts), and they were pretty much close(simple design) except the part numbers were on it so you didnt have to spend alot of time looking for those. Both systems are also fully modifiable to anyones injections molds, just make the table underneath adjustable for height, as far as thickness of the molds just unbolt the clamps and heat exchanger(the ones that use them) and move it to were its needed. nothing hard about that at all. Oh BTW skin does grow back from 350 degree plastic its just takes about 1.3 years to grow 2 " long and 3/16 deep. then it takes about another year to were you dont cry like a baby when the sun hits it . that was with NO doc, I imagine it would be faster with medical equipment other than a razor blade and a needle LOL, if you ever get burnt goto a doc its not worth it and infection does set in pretty fast. Delw Edited January 4, 2011 by Delw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Guys let me give you some first hand advice about plastic injection machines. I really don't know anybody that has one, be it Zorn or anyone elses, that does not have to do some kind of modifications to make the machine perform like they want it to perform. My first machine, I'm really just now, after two years, satisfied with what I can get it to do. #2 is still a work in progress. Understand, this is not badmouthing the equipment, it's just an undertaking getting it to perform the way I want it to perform. Anyone thinking about buying an injection machine, take into consideration, you will have to do a lot of learning. Even if everything on the machine is built exactly the same using the exact same parts(heat cartridges, etc.) they're still going to perform differently in some way or another. Delw, I agree with you 100%. If you've got a large amount of production to do, you're better off to wait until you can afford to do it professionally. People just have no idea of the amount of baits that can be produced with a plastic machine. If you've got 3 or 4 stores that you're supplying and you can't keep up with hand pours, then a smaller machine like Bear's might be the thing that you need. But you will have to have enough molds or enough bait cavities to keep up with production. Delw as far as the liability goes on these machines, be it Zorn or Bear, I'm not sure exactly how that will work. Has anybody ever sued Lee over a plastic or lead pouring pot? I understand that it's not under pressure, but wouldn't the liabilities be about the same? But for those of you that are doing hand pours and hand injections, and have started a business out of it, be very careful what you wish for. The further up you get into this business, the heavier the pressure, the headaches, and the expenses become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Has anybody ever sued Lee over a plastic or lead pouring pot? I understand that it's not under pressure, but wouldn't the liabilities be about the same? But for those of you that are doing hand pours and hand injections, and have started a business out of it, be very careful what you wish for. The further up you get into this business, the heavier the pressure, the headaches, and the expenses become. the way I understand it is Lee pots are built for plstic and lead, presto pots are designed for food, adding a valve will turn it into something else. seems silly to me, Pressure pots are for cooking fod under normal stive pressures, once you modiy one for ANYTHING else your open to a lawsuit, Ie the company who modifed the pressure pot. All american pressure cookers are one of the best and strongest and have NON plastic lids, they are also used alot for pressure pots in plastic. if you mention to them when you purchase the pot you are using it for something else they WILL not sell them to you. its a liability on there part also. so now you add a air hose and a heat band and some very hot plastic and you have a liability problem ONLY if you choose to sell them, if you make them for yourself I think there is a huge difference. the big difference is making the product and selling it. The way I understand it is that went you start doing things with pressure ( hot or cold) it runs into a completely different ball game. Our insurance guy explained it to us when the hand injectors first started to appear publicly for sale, thats the only reason we made a threaded one. because we made injection molds we could be held liable for any bodies injector that was put into our mold, just like just as much as the company who made the injector. the point is cover your ass, anyone can sue anyone and its really easy when you start in the manufacturing area using parts that are not designed for that specific purpose. some may remember way back when ( maybe 8 years ago), I was being sued for the medical costs becuase someones dog decided to eat the plastic liquid. funny thing was it was still in the freaking box UN opened and the post office had left it on the porch, dog got it got sick and I was chewed out and presented with a rather large bill. I just did a reply with a GFY message as I was laughing so hard I was crying. but it did get me to thinking, what happens if someones baby got that and drank it, am I liable or is the company that made the plastic liable? I repackaged it in another container, should I have put child safety caps on it???? being in the manufacturing industry my entire adult life you tend to see all kinds of things, and making parts for people/ or companies always gets you to thinking WHAT IF. Only reason I still have the safety locks on the machine doors is cause I had some idiot salemen come in and started nosing around. He sold machine tools, the idiot opened the door on a lathe running ceramic inserts on some Incolnel material. it was turning extreamly fast SFM wise when he opened the door he got a face full of chips and alot of burns on his chest and face so they all went back on right away. had one do it last year when we got our new machine ( I turned the door safety switch off cause I was setting up parts)and it was cutting rather fast, he opened the door and got blasted with coolant and alum chips from a 4" face mill. he had to go undress and shake his clothes out. and this guy was in the business and sold mills. makes you think doesnt it? for example buy a pcs of machinery that was intended for a specific purpose, Like a lathe. then make a frame and turn it straight up ie 90 degrees, if you have employees and something happens your in DEEP shit. as you made something that was made for a specific purpose and tested for that purpose and you changed it ( no matter how good you are and how safe it is. Reason I brought the lathe up was there was a big company here in the valley that took a 20in chuck Lathe turned if 45 degrees, thee made the frame and concrete frame and everything( they also had an engineerin dept) it was pretty damn cool and very sturdy. There insurance company made them do all kinds of stuff so they could use it, All kinds of red tape. Other wise if anyone got hurt on it they would loose the insurance. it ended up costing them over a year of down time cause they couldnt run it and had to do some kinda testing or something, I think it was osha that started the promles with it then the insurance got involved it was in the early 90's. its pretty much the same principle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 the way I understand it is Lee pots are built for plstic and lead, presto pots are designed for food, adding a valve will turn it into something else. seems silly to me, Pressure pots are for cooking fod under normal stive pressures, once you modiy one for ANYTHING else your open to a lawsuit, Ie the company who modifed the pressure pot. Lee pots- 1- Have unreliable thermostats 2- Must be manually stirred w/ inconsistent results 3- Can produce a dripping problem when shut off I have not used my Lee pots since I bought my presto pots from Bear 1 year ago. One man's poison is another man's passion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) Lee pots- 1- Have unreliable thermostats 2- Must be manually stirred w/ inconsistent results 3- Can produce a dripping problem when shut off I have not used my Lee pots since I bought my presto pots from Bear 1 year ago. One man's poison is another man's passion! My typeing wasnt the best as usual, I wasn't knocking the preso pot lots of guys had made them before bear. one guy was/is selling them long before. I see no difference between a presto pot and a lee pot as far as a lawsuit goes, how ever because one was used for cooking food and one is used for cooking lead/plastic. if a cooking pot catchs fire and is sold by someone , specifically for using plastic for worms he's going to get sued well before someones lee pot that was used for plastic or lead. it the way it works, will the guy actually sue? who knows, but if the insurance is involved and a death occurred you can bet your *&& someone will get sued. this is why is seems silly to me. way back when we used to be resonciple for what we did and accept our own fate so to speak, now it seems everyone wants to sue everyone and even if they dont it will be enticed to you. look at the medical field. When my 17 year old son(who has Downsyndrom) had heart surgery at 6 months he had a 97% chance of NOT living. his second day in ICU he turned blue, the pacemaker didnt work like it was suppose to and to top it off the nurse that was suppose to be in his room was out in the halway talking. a med student and my mother saved his life. we got many lawyers sending us letters and stuff asking up to sue as we could win some major money. how we got these letters we have no clue as we never said a word to anyone about it, didnt even think about sueing. it was an accident on the pace maker , its an electronic device that can and will fail although we hope not. Delw Edited January 4, 2011 by Delw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeye Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) Thank goodness im in australia. Although we are adapting some of your bad habits. Edited January 5, 2011 by Madeye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassmancup Posted January 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Thank you for all your thoughts. I agree that I can hand inject my molds faster than I could inject them with Bear's machine, I was just looking for a way to make more consistent laminate baits and help to reduce some of the fumes. I have quite a few molds, probably enough to keep three guys busy with the injector, but, I am more interested in some new molds I'm hoping to get made. I think they will look really good as laminates so I was wondering about how Bear's machine was performing with salt and additives and if there are any other machines out there, other than zorn, I am definately not ready for that type of production, that anyone else was using. I looked at the lure craft machine, but, it only does one color. Thanks again for all your feedback and keep it coming if you have anymore thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
