Madeye Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Fished a bream tornement over here in Australia this weekend and managed to win it. However i struggled to get many fish on my plastics. The fish where on the mud flats in 1-2m of water. We landed most fish using small hardbodies around 2-3inchs. The fish really go crazy when the bid stirs up the mud. They come and invetigate and inhale the lures. So i was wondering if anyone made a jig head with a small bid. This would get the lure to dig into the sand as well as imparting more action. I can see this idea really taking off over here. Before i go spending $$$ trying go invent the wheel i thought i would check if anyone is doing somthing like this in the USA. This is the best i could find. But i need the bid to face down not up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gone2long Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 I just bought a few of those and have not tried them yet (winter here) but I've spoken to many that have and all had good things to say but you will need to work them to keep them in the mud as they tend to ride up in the water column. And no I have not found a mold for those yet, some day soon I hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyGrub Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 I have never used one, but how about the Grave Digger jig head? Grave Digger Mold Link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HJS Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Cool video. Nice action on that lure. And you're right, with the lure in the video, the bib rides on top and I'm guessing the faster you pull it the more the lure rises to the surface. Just wondering, are these bream the same as our sunfish? (i.e. bluegill, shellbrackers, redear, etc.) Ok, I'm trying to figure out how the Australian seasons compared to our's here in the USA (yeah, I know, 6 months difference). During your tournament, were the bream on their spawning beds??? I've had huge successes with sunfish during the spawn by using small surface poppers on a fly rod. The very same sunfish would totally ignore small 1" twistertail jigs but would smash a small popper. I've also used the gravedigger, and yeah, that might be just what you are looking for. It digs right to the bottom, especially if you are fishing water that's 1-2 meters deep. Good luck with your hunt for the perfect lure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pirkfan Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 I think the gravedigger mold is just what you're looking for, I had a friend in Sydney who used them with some success for flathead and bream (bream seemed to be much fussier than flathead about taking plastics in general). And bream are a saltwater (estuary) species in the porgy family, not a member of the sunfish family (although they look a bit like them) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HJS Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Oh yeah... dang common names. I just googled "Australian Bream" and they ain't nothing like what we call bream (sunfish) in the USA. So I take everything back except the advise about the gravedigger jig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeye Posted January 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Had a look at the grave digger but the weights are way to heavy. We fish jigs from 1/32 to 1/16 . Looks like ill have to make something myself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Had a look at the grave digger but the weights are way to heavy. We fish jigs from 1/32 to 1/16 . Looks like ill have to make something myself The problem with this kind of jig, is getting the thing to swim with the hook point ‘up’. The centre of gravity (CoG) is above the hook shaft. The scrounger head achieved this by making the lip from lead. Works well, lowering the CoG below the hook shaft, but is too heavy for your application. I am sure there is a solution in the form of a crank jig, a miniature wood body, ballasted, lip glued on the front and slotted down the spine to take the hook. Obviously this would be more work than pouring lead, but I think it is possible. The jig will be about the same weight as the hook. I can design one using CAD as a feasibility study. This will allow me to solve the CoG problems before actually building anything, but need weight and dimensions of the hook, if you are interested, as a TU project. Maybe it has already been done anyway. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Another solution that you might prefer, is to reduce the size of the scrounger design and mount (glue) a polycarb or mica lip to it. This way the lead content is reduced to around 0.06 oz. Much easier to make than the crank idea. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blanx Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 i know in the lead forum there was a discussion about using the plastic from the big freezer doors as the bill material. purting a small jig head and then glueing in on. scroungers work great. i've fished them slow before letting them bounce off everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Fished a bream tornement over here in Australia this weekend and managed to win it. However i struggled to get many fish on my plastics. The fish where on the mud flats in 1-2m of water. We landed most fish using small hardbodies around 2-3inchs. The fish really go crazy when the bid stirs up the mud. They come and invetigate and inhale the lures. So i was wondering if anyone made a jig head with a small bid. This would get the lure to dig into the sand as well as imparting more action. I can see this idea really taking off over here. Before i go spending $$$ trying go invent the wheel i thought i would check if anyone is doing somthing like this in the USA. This is the best i could find. But i need the bid to face down not up. Are you looking for a 1/16 or 1/32 jig with an actual diving bill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeye Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Are you looking for a 1/16 or 1/32 jig with an actual diving bill? Yeah 1/24 would be perfect @ vodka man. What about rather than having the ball of the jig head. Just make a bill out of lead. will post a pic to explain what im talking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeye Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) First pic is a standard jig head with a plastic bib Second pic is a jig head with the bib made of lead to keep weight under 1/16 Also the centre of gravity would change depending on the plastic that is getting used. An ideas on how to make some prototypes dave. I cant work out any ways to attach a lead bill without using a proper jig mold Edited January 19, 2011 by Madeye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 First pic is a standard jig head with a plastic bib Second pic is a jig head with the bib made of lead to keep weight under 1/16 Cannot see any pics. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toadfrog Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 I think BPS sells a plastic snap on bill that fits over the back of a round jig head. If not it was probably on Jann's site . only two I've looked at in a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 I can foresee a problem with the swimming of the lure that we are contemplating. Consider a crank bait. The water forces on the lip rotate the lure nose down. This raises the ‘back’ of the lure, until the water forces on the back equal the forces on the lip and equilibrium is achieved. On our proposed jig, there is no ‘back’, just a bare hook. The result being that the lure will continue to rotate nose down, even past 90 degrees, so the lip will be pointing back. At some point in this rotation, the CoG (centre of gravity) will align with the tow line or more precisely, the swimming direction. When this happens, the lure becomes unstable, with nothing to keep it upright. The lure will spiral or death roll. I think the scrounger head, with its heavy lip, solves this problem with its heavy lip and therefore a much lower CoG. Gravity stops the lip from rotating too far, the CoG is still below the tow line and so the bait performs. My guess is that if you jerked the scrounger hard enough, it would probably spiral also. The attached drawing is just my first stab at a model and the hook is just invented, not real. You can see that the critical angle is only 25 degrees, in other words, if the lure goes nose down past 25 degrees, it will flip. I have extended the lip above the hook eye, in an attempt to reduce the rotation forces. This will help some, but won’t solve the whole problem. The assembly CoG or overall CoG needs to be lowered. Maybe my hook is heavier than reality and the problem is not as bad as depicted. A lighter wired hook could also be used. Another solution is to push more of the lead south towards the tip of the lip, also maybe you can live with more lead. Also a hook with the hook eye at 90 degrees would solve the CoG problem, but would increase the rotation force on the lip and require a shorter lip, not a bad thing though. Because of the soft lead, the jig would be prone to distortion if snagged, but I do not consider this a big problem, jigs do not last forever. I throw this out for discussion. Sorry if it is a bit techy, but I think it is a good idea to understand and try to solve a few of the problems before we start going to the trouble of building masters and making molds. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeye Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Wow im glad you cant see my pic now as yours puts it to shame. I based my ideas on using a 90 degree hook. Otherwise like you siad it would have a tendecy to tople over. Will the drag of the plastic lure also help prevent topling?? The smaller the bib the better i think as it will decrease the chance of snagging. The main use will be over sand and mud beds so bid distortion is unlikely. Once again dave your work and understanding of lure making is amazing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Wow im glad you cant see my pic now as yours puts it to shame. I based my ideas on using a 90 degree hook. Otherwise like you siad it would have a tendecy to tople over. Will the drag of the plastic lure also help prevent topling?? The smaller the bib the better i think as it will decrease the chance of snagging. You should post the pic or get it to me somehow, 'cos I am only guessing here. I do not own or use jigs. I think you are right, 90 degree is prolly the best way to go. yes, the plastic lure will solve a lot of problems. I need information to continue further. Hook dimensions and gauge (pic with a ruler). How is the plastic attached, barb? size? or coil? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeye Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Here are a few different types of jig heads that are used The first is only 1/42 and is Is called a Hidden Weight System (HWS) The beauty about these is that they change the CoG and help the lure fall more horizontally which depicts a more natural presentation. Next is the most comonly used type of jig head. While this one is only 1/24 they make them all the way up to 1 1/2 once like this Next is a sort of hybrid of the two this one is around 1/30 Last is the HWS jig rigged with one of my 3' bream worms. The ribbed lead is the best method of holding the lure and most manufactures use this method. All the hooks are the same size 30mm long, 4.5mm from centre of eye to bend in the hook. and 12mm high. The two option i see available is 1. use the HWS jigs and attach a plastic bid 2. make the bib and ribed section all out of lead and cast the whole thing. I think 2 will be better as they will all be the same and if the plastic bib isnt put on strait the lure wont swim right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 That is quite amazing, the dimensions that I chose for my hook were very close to yours. Not sure if your weights include the hook or not, but the weight of the lead alone in this model is 0.053 oz. I think it looks workable, though I think I like the straight hook better. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 I just re-built the model as a lead lip, as per your post. The lead lip cast weighs in at 0.093 oz, which is a bit heavier than your spec. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeye Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 You are a genuis I looked everywhere but couldnt find a weight That is quite amazing, the dimensions that I chose for my hook were very close to yours. Not sure if your weights include the hook or not, but the weight of the lead alone in this model is 0.053 oz. I think it looks workable, though I think I like the straight hook better. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeye Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) made out of pure lead is perfect weight. Thats about 1/26 according to my calculations. Edited January 20, 2011 by Madeye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeye Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Guess what i just found http://www.exportbureau.com/website.html?u=23160&url=www.lures.cn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemyway Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 i have been makeing scroungers for about a year now.normally we use them for bass but they will catch anything that will eat a minnow. maybe this pic will help those who don't know what a scrounger is . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
