Floater That Turns Over
60 replies to this topic
Posted 23 January 2011 - 02:53 AM
Anybody got any ideas that would make a small, say 5/8" by 1 1/2" (+ or -) prey fish imitation with a single hook float belly up when still and then when jerked say about 5-6", turn over and swim a few inches? What kind of a bill would it take to turn a lure from floating upside down to right side up and then turn belly up again?
What kind of diving bill would it take for the wounded or dying minnow just to turn half over on its side?
I figured one way to make the minnow float belly up and that is to mount the hook coming out of the minnow's back. When the dying minnow is cast out, the hook bend weight would turn the lure belly up but I can't visual what kind of a diving or turning bill shape it would take to make the minnow swim correctly for a few inches, or feet. Some corkscrew-looking device, maybe?
Posted 23 January 2011 - 05:07 AM
Hhmm , ........I'd say , that you intend to trick the laws of physics !
When I still was a newbie to lurecarving , I have made a prototype with a sideward curved body and an "ordinary" shallow diving bill in attempt to achieve a somewhat different swimming pattern , .....the only thing the lure did was to spin over and over again remaining on the surface .
You'd have to utilize shifting internal weights to cause the lure to flip from one position to another as soon as the retrieve commences , .........that could probably be made possible , .......but how would you make the lure to swing back into it's first position again ?
You only have the line pull's force to gain control over the lure , and that force works only into just ONE direction , impossible to utilize it to cause a kinda "reverse" effect .
The built-in crankbait dynamics enable a lure to only display a certain swimming pattern time and time again , basically generated by the pull force of the line , ......no other means to alter the lure dynamics during retrieve unless you would have a kinda remote control .
You could build-in certain features into your lure(like flipping from one position to another , slowly soaking up water to sink ,...... or similar) , but these would get to action ONLY ONCE , ...don't think that they can be made to reverse or even repeatative , ....but probably someone would proove me wrong .
Just my !
good luck , diemai
Posted 23 January 2011 - 06:08 AM
John, that is a very interesting and challenging idea, but it makes sense. We have all seen dying fish, they go belly up, then swim erratically for a foot or two.
From a design point of view, I do not think a 180 degree rotation is doable, as the lip would not be able to ‘bite’ the water. I think 75 degrees might be possible. At this angle, the lip has a chance to bite and would achieve the visual that you are looking for.
With this imitation, we can forget about the concept of perfect alignment and straight swimming, as that would defeat the object. If I were to attempt this build, I would fit the lip about 10 degrees off centre. This would guarantee that the lure stopped on the same side each time and the lip was hanging in the water, ready to catch the water when moved.
I would fit the weight high up the body, towards the back. This would require trial and error, to find the weight vertical position to balance the normal hardware (belly and tail trebles) and tip the lure on its side. You could achieve the same with a back hook, but I think it would be more difficult. Another small problem is, that the addition of the top coat will change things slightly, but this will be learned from the first few builds.
This would be the direction I would take the design, but I would not start there. Prototype No1 would be a standard design with a properly aligned lip, with a lip angle of 75 degrees (for a top swimmer), but with the ballast mounted high enough to lean the bait over severely to one side. I suspect a lot of lip variants would have to be tried (shape, width and length) to find the right one for the job. I would video the swim and study it. From here I would change one thing at a time and expect to be building a lot of prototypes. I would be building a new bait for each change, marking a number on each bait and making notes and references to the video record.
Another adjustment is the ‘cross’ angle that the lip is cut. Looking ‘end on’ the lip, introduce a 10 degree angle. This would increase the strength of the vortex on the forward pointing edge. This would cause the lure lip to pull harder on the downward stroke and weaker on the upward stroke, enabling the lure to right itself. I think without this modification, the bait will just swim on its side.
This is the way I go about all my development lures. I don’t usually use video, but I think it would help with this design. Please excuse the ramble, as I am typing as I think. You have captured my interest enough that I might even attempt this myself. Maybe I had better just put it on the list.
This is a rough sketch of what I had in mind.
Posted 23 January 2011 - 06:49 AM
### WARNING - TECHNICAL DISCUSSION ###
This picture shows how I see the lure at rest, with nearly all the lip under the surface.
From a theory point of view, the first vortex, unfortunately, will form on the bottom edge of the lip. This will not achieve much, other than rotating the lure in the plane of the water surface. The second vortex however, should form on the sunken lip side, pulling the lure down towards vertical. This vortex needs to be strong enough to rotate the lure far enough to sink the opposite edge to an angle that will attract the third vortex. To get this to happen, the lure will require a firm twitch to kick start the vortices.
Vortices prefer vertical edges. When a vortex forms, it tries to rotate in a vertical axis (this is why twisters form). This means that the third vortex is more likely to form at an edge that is closer to the vertical. So the lure has to rotate far enough to make the opposite lip side more attractive to the vortex.
This might not happen with the current design, but there are things that we can change to correct this. A round lip may well be a better proposition, as this doesn’t have a distinct bottom edge and the first vortex will be forced to form in the sunken edge. The second vortex, being out of options, will be forced to form on the opposite edge.
I am now confident that this design will work, but it will be a case of tuning the offset angles to find a swimming balance.
Posted 23 January 2011 - 08:22 AM
Dave , .....I guess that I'm getting behind your design , .......I was so focussed on a shifting weight , that certainly could only be moved ONCE , ........your design falls under what I've stated to be a built-in action , that can be repeated time and time again just by the pull force of the retrieved line(which in this case would have to be used in a very subtle manner) .
But the whole design would be subject to accurate balancing , as you've stated , ....but what is not quite clear to me is , whether the lure would wiggle like an ordinary crankbait on retrieve once twisted into a lip-down swimming position and...... would it come back in a straight or offset course to the line pull direction , ........hard to imagine for me that it would do any of this two things ?
Greetz , Dieter
Posted 23 January 2011 - 08:58 AM
I am still thinking about the design and tweaking in my mind, in fact, I have another lip option.
I do actually see a wiggle action. But Johns original specification of the lure travelling as little as 5" or 6" is not really achievable if a wiggle action is part of the deal. With a short, sharp twitch, I think the lure will right itself, then lay flat again, as specified. With a longer draw, the lure will wiggle, but I am not expecting it to swim straight, with all those offset angles and high ballast.
The first thought that I had was the same as yours, namely a sliding weight system. But like you, I could not see the cycle, plus I did not fancy the complexities of the build, especially in such a small lure. The original spec was for a 1.5" lure, a bit small for my eyes. I have a 2" x 0.63" master for the dup m/c, this is fairly close, so I may just go ahead and cut a dozen for testing johns idea. I just found a couple of 2" bodies, also a bag of 2.5" x 0.5" bodies, already cut.
All this time I have been trying to master the art of cutting perfect square lip slots, it is going to be wierd cutting these and fitting the lip all scewed.
Posted 24 January 2011 - 03:49 AM
@ Diemai and Vodkaman
Thank you both for your thought provoking comments!!!!
In North America warm water, LM bass and Striped bass are infamous for hammering schools of shiner, shad and other minnow species. Bass will knock, hit or pin the smaller fish, maybe daze them, damage their internals and eat away. I have seen prey get away, they swim awhile, sometimes gradually turn belly up, swim away, then swim in partial or complete circles, right themselves and swim and then gradually die and float with the wind or current belly up. All this unless they aren't seen by bass again and eaten before they die!! I haven't seen bass, to my recollection, ever eat a dead minnow floating belly up.
I was making a batch of terrestrial popping bugs, I'm a fly fisherman and Big LM Bass 5-6 pounds and heavier on top water are my passion, and I looked at my bug body and wondered if it could be re-designed to mimic a dying prey minnow. I glue a single, kink or hump shanked hook into the body - no trebles, no internal weights or ballasts, no diving lips (at this time). I could mount the hook bend coming out of the BACK of the minnow, not belly. When cast the lure would either
a. land belly up/hook down - remaining motionless,
b. land belly down/hook up - the hook would go down and turn the belly up ,or
c. land with the hook and belly on the water's surface and the hook would go down and the belly up.
All of this action can be obtained by proper hook placement. But a lure that only mimics a belly up prey won't work, IMHO.
The only other control I have is to strip the lure 5-6" and have it turn right side up then turn belly up again. So Dave I need to make some prototypes and see what angle the lip needs to be to make the correct vortex.
Thanks for your ideas.
Posted 24 January 2011 - 05:18 AM
John, thanks for getting back to us, and with more information. I am now interested enough to take this project to the next level and make a few prototypes to see what happens. No guarantees as this has been all pure theory so far and is way outside the box of my/our experience.
I am not so sure that what I will produce will work on a fly rod setup, but the final lure, a 2” lipped crank with a single belly treble, will weigh approximately 10 grams (0.35 oz). But if it works (big IF), I am sure it could be adapted to what ever you need. For the time being I will work with what I have available to me.
The first job is to create a double angle jig, for controlling the cutting of the lip slot. Free hand cutting is possible, but no two lures would be the same, not good for prototyping. I have cut the double angle block, next is to find a way to locate the blank body on the block. This will be a Bondo filler half mold of the body.
Not so sure I want to do a running documentary of a project that is more likely to fail than succeed, so I will probably go quiet for a few weeks, but will document the progress with drawings and photographs. As soon as I have anything to report, I will get back to you.
Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:30 AM
In my early days of building, I made a few cranks that would float at approx 65-75 degrees by mistake. The ballast weight was off center, the baits would staighten up once moving at a slow speed. Of course the was just newbie mistakes but you could try a prototype with the ballast weight off center and see what happens.
Posted 24 January 2011 - 07:56 PM
Different angle of deception???? Why not paint the side pattern of the bait on the belly of the bait hence three sides that match & the back, therefore giving the illusion of the bait being on it's side. Might be accepable with a very radical jerkbait. Vern
Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:33 AM
I was thinking about a few lure failures of the past as well , ..........when the lip /line tie configuration is not well designed , sometimes a lure would just lay on it's side(or even tend to flip over on faster paces) when the retrieve commences , ........one may even generate such action by just ending the line tie of a well tuned bait to one side .
Certainly the lure's course won't be straight this way , but at least you could get an about 90°twist out of your lure , .......paint it the right way and you'd have a bait swimming belly-up at rest and making "it's final downward dashes" laying on one of it's flanks , ....it might even wiggle a bit this way .
good luck , diemai
Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:47 AM
Ha! I have built a few of those in the last four years. We should learn from our mistakes and you are right.
I have built and tested my first proto. It failed, but I learned a lot and will adjust for second attempt. It kind of worked by righting itself, but it just kept going and blew out the other side. So by reducing an angle will slow the roll, but whether a balance can be reached remains to be seen. I am sure the 6" twitch idea can be achieved, but I would really like it to swim longer distances with wiggle action, without rolling out.
Back to the CAD now, I have to design and build another lip plane jig.
Posted 25 January 2011 - 06:12 AM
### WARNING - TECHNICAL DISCUSSION ALSO###
This is my old favourite ---add buoyancy not ballast!!!!
How about— laminating half PVC foam over half some wood (not balsa) that is more dense.
As the lure is moved forward against the lip and tends to rotate down, the considerably more buoyant top overcomes the lesser buoyancy of the denser wood and the counteracting weigh of the hook which will also weigh less as it is drawn under the water (how much less I don’t remember ??? help Dave) .
And if you get it right the foam should take over and the lure should swim upright!!!
This would be a fine science----------------------
Sounds easy—in my head anyway.
Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:04 AM
How about a very narrow off angle lip that would dig and turn the lure, but not be enough to keep it running true, so it would oscillate between it's side and it's belly being down. I'm guessing that the water would spill off the bill as soon as the force of the water from moving the lure built up a little, and it wouldn't be able to swim at speed, so it would "blow out" and go back on it's side.
Dave, I really appreciate how you step up and do the hard work. Thanks.
Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:17 AM
Very intersting topic. I think a mix of hazmail and daves solution is probably the way to go. Ive tried to make this style swimbait numerous times but it would never do what i wanted. it is just next to impossible to get the boyancy and ballast right to keep the bill from overtaking the action and rolling to the other side to fast. I dont have a problem with it going to the other side its just that it does it really quick and is not really erratic. Dont forget you have to clear the bait too!
Posted 25 January 2011 - 04:27 PM
Kudos to all who posted their ideas here!!! I've got a prototype idea but more questions come up. nitro98 I'm interested in "what you wanted it to do." Please tell us what you wanted your lure to do.
From what you posted, I understand that you observed that it kept turning over and over during retrieve. Or did it turn over too quickly for what you wanted it to do?
What did you mean about clearing the bait?
Thanks again to all who posted.
Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:40 PM
Thanks Pete for your post. It got me to thinking. I have an idea for a prototype but first some questions.
When you laminate foam to a more dense wood, without hook(s), ballast or lip, the lure outline will float foam side up, OK? Then when you add a hook(s) as shown in your drawing, the lure can be made to balance on its side, OK? Then when you add a modified lip and eye, when pulled the lure will right itself and the more dense wood becomes on top while it's being pulled, Right? Does this description accurately explain what you meant?
If my understanding of your post is correct, then your solution is different from my original specs in at least two ways.
First, after casting and your lure comes to original position, your lure will be on either its right or left side dependent upon which side the hook fell upon. My lure would always come to original position with the back down (hook protruding) and the belly up.
Second when pulled (retrieved), your lure would rotate 90 degrees and swim normally down with its belly down and back up. My lure specifications did not say down so its possible when pulled (retrieved) my lure would turn 180 degrees such that the belly was down and the back up in a normal manned until the pulling stopped and both lures resumed their original positions. I had intended that my lure would stay on the surface.
Frankly I had not thought of beginning with the lure floating on its side. Here in North America, when I see dying minnows swimming on the surface, they seem to swim in a clockwise circle, and I thought that circular motion would be just too difficult to replicate. But when something inside their belly makes them turn up, they fight it and try to swim off in a normal manner. This belly up - belly down, belly up - belly down action of dying fish may go on some time. I had hoped to mimic this action by waiting seconds between pulls.
Its starting to become clear to me that the vortex as Dave discussed, is our major challenge. Getting the lure turning seems not to be as difficult as stopping if from turning when the bait is, and remains, in the proper position.
Thanks Pete and all for the help.
Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:06 PM
Wow - first of all you guys are way over my head. But my first reaction when I saw this thread was that there are some flies out there that do exactly what you want to do. How you translate that into a lure I'm not sure, but here you go:
This one is the crippled perch - it has a diver type shape, but when stripped dives and twists a bit. Not sure how or why it works, but it does.
Another is Debbie's Sunfish - (roll down in the same book) - it has a curve to the hook that, when stripped again, causes it to dive, right itself and then float back up. They are both killer flies on bass.
Finally, while not exactly the same, I once carved a fly rod slider (like a popper but with an angled face sloping back from top to bottom rather than the other way around). I did a sloppy job and it was also angled left to right. It had little rubber leg material for a tail. Anyway, when I would false cast the thing would spin wicked. When it would land the leader would slowly unwind and the fly would spin in the water. The fish would go nuts over that one. Again - don't think you could replicate that with a lure, but damn that sure was a great fly.
Can't wait to see what you come up with.
Posted 26 January 2011 - 06:09 AM
Q-"When you laminate foam to a more dense wood, without hook(s), ballast or lip, the lure outline will float foam side up, OK? Then when you add a hook(s) as shown in your drawing, the lure can be made to balance on its side, OK? Then when you add a modified lip and eye, when pulled the lure will right itself and the more dense wood becomes on top while it's being pulled, Right? Does this description accurately explain what you meant?"
No John - The opposite-- I think the less dense foam (more buoyant ---Top) might overcome the less buoyant hardwood (bottom) which essentially becomes the ballast once the lure rolls and is under water.
The hook might equalise the difference in buoyancy while on the surface (between the two different buoyancies), but once under the water things should reverse somewhat, in that the (Top) foam becomes even more buoyant and counteracts the gravitational pull of the hook (density of the hook is less under water compared to on surface) and hopefully the less buoyant (heavier) bottom might keep it all under control.
Never tried it, but I can 'FEEL' guys working in their sheds eager to test these and VM's ideas-- if it does not work you /we will surely have learned something?? ???
Might have to give it a try myself in a week or so,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I am going to Mallacoota (Vic) for a full weeks fishin----------and some nice red wine in two days (on Friday here)!!!!!.
EDIT to this--SSSSOORY -I just realised that you intend putting the hook on the bottom, for some reason I was assuming it would be along the top somewhere, should not matter much and you could have either or both, you just need to attach/size so the lure is made to float on it's side at rest.
Edited by hazmail, 26 January 2011 - 06:14 AM.
Posted 26 January 2011 - 06:55 AM
Pete, have not been ignoring you. I just couldn't think of a good arguement for or against. I hope that you build it and report. The same goes for everyone else with an idea, build and video. Could call it a design swap.