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Custom Molds?

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Looking for someone to make a few aluminum molds for me. I called the normal recommendations basstackle and Jacobs. Jacobs could not make what I wanted and basstackle is to busy now to do custom work. Does anyone else know someone that can make custom molds for a decent price? I have talked to Zorn already.

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Hi There

SMH

I am currently commissioning a new machine and would love to give some custom cevelopment a try, let me know if you are interested.

Cheers

Nutt

Looking for someone to make a few aluminum molds for me. I called the normal recommendations basstackle and Jacobs. Jacobs could not make what I wanted and basstackle is to busy now to do custom work. Does anyone else know someone that can make custom molds for a decent price? I have talked to Zorn already.

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Hi There

SMH

I am currently commissioning a new machine and would love to give some custom cevelopment a try, let me know if you are interested.

Cheers

Nutt

I would be interested myself. I have tried bass tackle and others as well. I would like to be a customer rep for all these guys, I only wish to have a business that can answer Emails weeks later. Has to be a big fad right now cause everyone is nuts busy. Frugal America is alive and well I see.Everyone is out of work and trying to turn a buck by making lures. Oh well. Email Walleyemagic@aol.com or

John@icemanjigs.com

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Also, you can try Bear @ Bears Baits, Jason @ Caney Creek Molds, Del @ Del-Mart molds.

I would ask them all and get a price from each. I know they all are busy but someone will take your money!!!! LOL!!!

Jim

Thanks I will check them all out.

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Looking for someone to make a few aluminum molds for me. I called the normal recommendations basstackle and Jacobs. Jacobs could not make what I wanted and basstackle is to busy now to do custom work. Does anyone else know someone that can make custom molds for a decent price? I have talked to Zorn already.

Make sure you get it in writing that you own the CAD files before you give YOUR design or you might get screwed when the mold maker lets you down and takes WAY to long to make your molds and you decide enough is enough and you want to go else were. I would not be surprised if there is a mold maker who has the molds made in China and claim it as their own work, not naming any names, just a hunch. Perhaps that's why it takes so long to get a finished mold.

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Make sure you get it in writing that you own the CAD files before you give YOUR design or you might get screwed when the mold maker lets you down and takes WAY to long to make your molds and you decide enough is enough and you want to go else were. I would not be surprised if there is a mold maker who has the molds made in China and claim it as their own work, not naming any names, just a hunch. Perhaps that's why it takes so long to get a finished mold.

The ownership of the CAD files should be negotiated in the price. Jacobs and Del both make their stuff in house. I'm pretty sure Bass Tackle does too.

If somebody makes you a custom one off mold from your hand drawings or even computer genrerated sketches they have put hundreds of dollars (maybe thousands) worth of their time into it before they ever make the first cut.

I have seen three price structures for custom molds. If I were to go into the business instead of just doing it as a hobby this is the price structure I would use. The exact price would vary dramatically from mold to mold, but the general principle would apply. The price structure below is not a public offering. Its for illustrative purposes only.

1. Relatively cheap. The maker can make the molds for themselves and others.

2. Modest price. They won't make the mold for themselves or sell it to others (agreement of exclusivity), but they own all the files generated. If you want to take it to somebody else you start over.

3. Expensive. You get copies of everything when they are done along with an agreement of exclusivity on your design.

I would guess based on a modestly simple design that takes only a few hours of machine time per cavity.

1. $50 -100 (CAD/CAM) + $50 - 100 per cavity.

Here they are gambling that they can make back the money for their time by selling the mold to other people. They may not be willing to offer you this option if they don't like your design. If they don't think they can sell it to others and this is all you are willing to pay for they will be "too busy" to take care of you. If they go for it they may offer you a free 2nd mold if they sell more then (10-20) to pay you back for your initial setup costs. They may not. Its something to be negotiated. If they really are very busy they may not be willing to do it for you like this just because other more lucrative work is taking their time.

2. $200 - 500 (CAD/CAM) + $50 - 100 per cavity.

Here they are gambling that they can make back the money for their design time by selling more of the mold to just one client, and they are protecting their investment of time by maintaining ownership of the files (not your design) to cut your design. Again, they may not be willing to offer you this option if they don't like your design. If they don't think they can sell more of them to you and this is all you are willing to pay for they will be "too busy" to take care of you. If they really are very busy they may not be willing to do it for you like this just because other more lucrative work is taking their time.

3. $700 - 2000 (CAD/CAM) + $50 - 100 per cavity.

Here you are paying them directly for the time they spend putting your concept into a decent CAD format, laying out the cut files, generating the code, and destroying materials while making test cuts. Pretty much any mold maker should be willing to get paid what they are worth to do this for you if the molds is within their capability and if they have the time to design and cut your mold for you.

Note: None of that protects you from somebody reverse engineering your bait in China and making it. As far as I can tell China has no protection for foreign IP (intellectual property).

Another thing to bear in mind. While you may perceive a mold maker to be "ripping you off" they probably are not. I have been working on a jig mold for a year that pockets and flows water to give it the weight necessary for some applications, but it will fall slower in open unobstructed water. No, not the wobble fall of Bas Stalkers. Something different. I have since found two other jigs that have designs similar to some of my working files. I didn't copy their work at all. Mine is unique original work, but I bet if I sold them they would claim I copied them or "ripped them off." Just because you have a mold maker make a jerkbait for you that doesn't mean they can never make a jerkbait for somebody else. I'm also not saying that some mold makers won't take your design and then sell it to others without being clear about the IP rights upfront. Just that clear communication is king. If you didn't pay for their work upfront then they probably don't figure they owe any protection to your IP. They probably figure you don't own any rights to their IP (design and cut files) either.

Remember that communication is king. Also remember if you didn't pay for it specifically then you don't own it.

Note: Somebody mentioned this issue in private conversation a while back claiming one of the well known mold makers had ripped off their design. I looked into the pricing from that mold maker, and I have had some time to think about the subject.

For anybody who want to argue about the pricing I listed above, knock yourself out. It is for illustrative purposes anyway. Think about this though.

On one design I have been working on for myself I have spent probably 30 hours sitting in front of my computer just doing CAD modifications to build the 3D solid file. Then I spent an hour or two of front of my computer taking that solid and turning it into a cuttable mold. Then it took 12-20 hours to cut that mold on the machine. I also made some setup mistakes and had to scrap a couple plates after they were a couple hours into the cut. Now add this on. I have worked this design up from the ground twice, and I am still not happy with the results. The second time I did the redesign in probably 6-8 hours. There is a lot of work involved in taking a design from concept to creation. If I valued my time at just minimum wage those two failed molds would cost over $300. That's before I factor in worn out cutters, machine wear and tear, the actual aluminum plate used for the mold, the cost of the hardware (computers, machine, etc) and the electricity and building to operate it all.

That's why I am a hobbyist. LOL.

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All I am saying is that make sure you know what you are getting into fully before you go ahead and trust somebody based on their word and get a signed agreement before you hand over any designs or money.

Before you know it, the mold maker will claim that HE designed your lure that you spent many hours and dollars making a prototype and testing to get it right.

And as for the amount of money I spent with this guy, it would buy you a nice truck or boat and I had more money to spend as well.

Bob, I hear AZ is nice a nice place, I will add it to my list of must see States, even my neighbor wants to move back there and keeps telling me how great it is. What’s the fishing like there? I have a couple of weeks to kill in the summer.

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All I am saying is that make sure you know what you are getting into fully before you go ahead and trust somebody based on their word and get a signed agreement before you hand over any designs or money.

Before you know it, the mold maker will claim that HE designed your lure that you spent many hours and dollars making a prototype and testing to get it right.

And as for the amount of money I spent with this guy, it would buy you a nice truck or boat and I had more money to spend as well.

Bob, I hear AZ is nice a nice place, I will add it to my list of must see States, even my neighbor wants to move back there and keeps telling me how great it is. What’s the fishing like there? I have a couple of weeks to kill in the summer.

Ultimately, unless you plan to go to court a "signed" physical agreement is still just taking somebody at their word. It might make winning a court dispute a little easier, but that's about it.

As to cost... buy me a new truck (my choice of truck) and I promise to give you all of my source files for my crappie grubs and delete the original files from all my computers. I'll sign the agreement saying that upon receipt of the notarized title for the truck.

Az is a nice state with a varied climate and varied fishing. While water is not as abundant as back east or in the midwest there is a little bit for almost every kind of fisherman, and its not that far to Mexico or San Diego for salt trips.

I do my best bass fishing in the hottest calmest days of summer, and ITS HOT, but the fishing can be rewarding when you get a clue.

My dad does the snowbird thing now, and he never has to leave the state to do it. Summers in the mountains and winters in the desert.

Arizona is still a free state (well better than most anyway). Please don't come here if you want to force repressive politics on us.

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Bob,

I hate politics, there’s two things that are sure to destroy mankind, one is religion and the other is politics (mixture of both). A school teacher told me many years ago, never argue about politics or religion as nobody ever wins. You can see this by the state of the World today.

Perhaps if I had saved my money on molds and living the dream (or nightmare, depends on your perspective) of having a fishing related business I would have enough money to move to AZ, sure sounds like an idyllic place.

Anyway off subject, I would still get a signed agreement for what it’s worth. Like a patent, it’s only as good as the money you have to defend it.

Mr.C

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Bob your information(especially one #1, 2 and 3) is not correct and overly complicated.

heres the simple version. for small molds this post has nothing to do with big molds for real injection machines, for the most part lets say you want a mold for a zorn machine or that type of machine, every machineshop that has the capabilities of doing it, will pretty much charge you the same price as zorn becuase it takes the same amount of time generally.

1st things 1st, Custom machine work is just that CUSTOM. there is generally NO print, only a sample to go off of or an idea. Unlike a blue print were a machine shop can look at a print and say yup its going to cost xxx amount of money. this is more of fly off the seat of your pants type of thing.

a machine shop gets xx amount per hour. its usually around 60 bucks and hour for normal machining jobs So lets just say 60 and hour or $1 per min. we wont throw in 4th and 5th axis work or anything else for the sake of this post.

from the min your part is worked on your charged, this includes set-up time ordering and buying material tooling, programming time, reworking to make it just right time even talking to the customer about design changes etc etc,

fees are generally like this

A custom mold is: ( for the most part figure a custom mold costing $400+) thats only 6.5 hours of work which isnt alot of time).

A bait that was never commercially designed and its your own design and product, no one gets it not friends other machine shops no one, most mold makers wont even use it for themselves..

you get charged programming time, set-up time material price etc etc basically everything

a production mold is

molds that are made that the mold maker decides to put online, usually there own design or a copy off of a commercially produced bait.,

because its a production mold you generally pay only for Machine time, stock and finish work.

you dont pay for set-up time programming time etc etc.

A production mold that you want modified,

generally you dont pay anything or only pay for the modifications.

as far as cad files machine files and such being your property.

No not even close. its not yours unless you goto someone and specifically arrange for that. some people will make the cad file for people for a price, and its yours but it doesnt cut the part its just a pretty picture.

any shop that gives you there machine files and modified cad files are fools for a few reasons.( and I dont think you will find a machine shop anywere that will do that.

one they just cut there own throats, cause a part they just made, figured out how to run, figured out the tooling feeds and speeds and everything is all by experiance, not to mention why if someone got the first one would they even come back to get another one, they could find anyone with a machine in there garage with a machine and have them run it.

not to mention anyshop that would run some else's cam file(machine file) is a fool cause it can easily destroy some's pcs of equipment.and most people cant check a mold program before the run it as its was too long and a machinist isnt going to sit there single blocking 300,000+ lines of code. ( its easier to just write the whole thing from scratch.)

as far as ND's in my opinion its not even worth the time,if you cant take someones word for it than dont let them see your part.

we do it for some but for the most part I dont, just because once I see the baits there usally something copied with a small size change or someting silly, most customers understand 100%

reasons beings I have signed ND's and then get the bait and its a bait that I have online, then I get a C&D order served to me then the lawyers start writing letters and I usually have to tell the to F- off.

I been doing this for a ton of years and I see thousands of different baits a year, I usually only see half a dozen baits or less per year that are truely unique that no one else had ever dreamed of let alone made.

As far as china, That shit hole will do anything, and its AMERICANS that will have them do it. I have seen them take baits and make molds out of them and then sell them on ebay. I've had customers call me up asking me why I sold his baits to china cause there baits are under another name. I never do that I wont even deal with that P.O.S. of a country. what they do is buy a bait and make a mold of it then copy it and sell it. its very easy to do as guys do it all the time with POP RTV and other media.

I have baits that one of my customers sent me that his competator claimed to have made and designed, not to mention got a huge write up in europe somewhere about how great this bait was, it was nothing more than a copy, they even had the exact same machine lines in the plastic which cant be copied by any machinist, after doing some real good looking we found that they covered the name up that was on the tail, but it still slightly showed the imprint of my customers name.

if any American or American Company does goto china/mexico or any other 3rd world country to have the molds made cause everyone else they feel is too expensive, they deserve everything they get and I dont feel sorry for them in the least, it actually makes my day when I hear the horror stories from people who go there cause they want something for nothing.

oops one more thing on CAD files.

if you have a cad file made that doesnt mean it is machinable, or ready to be machines, MOST cad drawers Dont have a clue about machining a mold let alone machining a part, just because it can be drawn, doesnt mean it can be cut. I have seen quite a few cad files that had to have some major rework done to them just to make the bait makeable.

ALWAYS before you spend the money or time to draw up a cad file talk to the person at a machine shop about it, other wise you could be wasting a ton of money on a pretty picture that wont work.

Delw

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