Brent R Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I have read a lot of threads on lure dryers and some are way over my head.....Hope you don't mind the questions... I want to build a dryer that turns 8 rpms...I can get 2 different motors the specs for those motors are as follows. motors are 9rpms with 3.5 torque in lbs..... the other is 12 rpms with 2.6 torque in lbs other info on motors as follows Synchronous AC Gearmotors To help eliminate the need for belts, chains, and other speed reducers, these gearmotors are synchronized with line frequency and load fluctuation to provide precise, constant speed for timing and positioning applications. Each gearmotor consists of a motor and a geared speed reducer to lessen speed while increasing torque. Although the motor operates at very low rpms and has low starting torque, it is highly efficient. Gearmotors are rated for continuous duty and have sleeve bearings, molded plastic gears, Class A insulation rated to 221° F, and lead wires for electrical connection. They also have a clockwise rotation (when facing the shaft end) and are not reversible. Rated rpm values decrease when operating at 50 Hz. Full load amps shown are at the motor's lowest voltage. Housing is zinc-plated steel. UL recognized. Sure could use your help and would like your info on my project..Thanks Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 9rpm is fine and 3.5ft-Lbs is plenty strong enough. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent R Posted March 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 9rpm is fine and 3.5ft-Lbs is plenty strong enough. Dave My question is if i use a 9 or 12 rpm motor how big does the wheel itself have to be to get it to turn 8 rpms....I tried to send you a pm but it wouldn't let me......I would like to use the 12 rpm motor that way i could have a bigger wheel....but i don't know how big the wheel has to be to get it to turn 8 rpms.....thanks for your help ....hope i'm not confusing you... Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Moreau Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 My question is if i use a 9 or 12 rpm motor how big does the wheel itself have to be to get it to turn 8 rpms....I tried to send you a pm but it wouldn't let me......I would like to use the 12 rpm motor that way i could have a bigger wheel....but i don't know how big the wheel has to be to get it to turn 8 rpms.....thanks for your help ....hope i'm not confusing you... Brent I think its impossible to confuse Dave!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent R Posted March 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I think its impossible to confuse Dave!!! I was told he was the MAN when it comes to math......and drying wheels...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I think its impossible to confuse Dave!!! You guys are too kind, but wrong. Women confuse me all the time. If you want to achieve 8rpm from a 12rpm motor, you will need two pulley wheels with a diameter ratio 8:12 or 2:3 examples motor pulley diameter 50mm, lure drier pulley = 75mm (50mm / 2 x 3). motor pulley diameter 2", lure drier pulley = 3" (2" / 2 x 3). You should try direct drive at 12rpm, you will probably find that it works just fine without all the messing about with pulleys or gears. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) a 12 rpm motor is a 12 rpm motor regardless of the wheel size if it is directly driving the axle of your lure turner. As the wheel gets bigger in diameter, the speed through the air increases but the rpm is the same. I have a 6 rpm motor that I like because I can clip lure on while it is rotating. If you're talking rotating epoxy lures, anything 1 rpm or more is probably sufficient. In your example, I'd choose the 9 rpm motor for its moderate speed and better torque. Women AND Dave sometime confuse me. Edited March 31, 2011 by BobP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent R Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 You guys are too kind, but wrong. Women confuse me all the time. If you want to achieve 8rpm from a 12rpm motor, you will need two pulley wheels with a diameter ratio 8:12 or 2:3 examples motor pulley diameter 50mm, lure drier pulley = 75mm (50mm / 2 x 3). motor pulley diameter 2", lure drier pulley = 3" (2" / 2 x 3). You should try direct drive at 12rpm, you will probably find that it works just fine without all the messing about with pulleys or gears. Dave Thanks for all your help........I do want it to be direct drive.......i want to set it up like a grill motor.....If the motor turns 12rpms what diameter do i have to make the turner to make it a 8rpm...If i run around my house at 12rpms and i run around the block at 12rpms it will take long to run around the block than it will around the house....I must not be explaining it very good....I read another thread that said...a 9rpm motor with a turning wheel that is 7 inches in diameter turns 7.6 rpms....i hope this helps you get my meaning...thanks again.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent R Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 a 12 rpm motor is a 12 rpm motor regardless of the wheel size if it is directly driving the axle of your lure turner. As the wheel gets bigger in diameter, the speed through the air increases but the rpm is the same. I have a 6 rpm motor that I like because I can clip lure on while it is rotating. If you're talking rotating epoxy lures, anything 1 rpm or more is probably sufficient. In your example, I'd choose the 9 rpm motor for its moderate speed and better torque. Women AND Dave sometime confuse me. I understand that a 12 rpm motor is a 12 rpm motor no matter what.....But if you put a 10 inch wheel on it ..it will turn xxxx rpms on the out side of the wheel.....if you put a 14 inch wheel on it ...it will turn at a slower rpm at the out side of the wheel.....am i correct on this........Thanks for your input.... Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent R Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 To Dave and Bob.......the more i think about the problem the more confused i get......Sorry if i didn't make any since.....I am new at this and just wanted to make sure i did it right the first time...This is the thread i was referring to...... The speed of the wheel DOES matter as I have found out. I was drying with a 9 RPM motor one bait at a time and turning on its own axis from lead hook eye through the end hook eye. Each bait was truly turning at 9 RPM. It was working well, but I wanted to be able to do more than one at a time. I bought one of the motors someone told us about on this site on sale. It turns at 2 RPM. I made a wheel that can handle 6 baits and each are 7 inches from the center axis and rotating around the it. The results of this speed and distance was that each bait actually turned at 1.3 RPM around the center axis. ALL my baits came out lumpy and uneven with this set up. I took the 9 RPM motor and put it on my new wheel. Now each bait goes around the center axis 7.6 times per minute. This has now fixed the lumpy D2T issue. All baits are smooth again. My conclusion is that you can turn baits too slowly and thereby NOT overcome the effects of gravity on the relatively heavy D2T. After all that is the purpose of the drying wheel. I would think from my experience that someone would not want to turn a bait slower than 5 or 6 RPM to be confident in the ability of the wheel to help with the leveling of the clear coat. Thanks for all your help........Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I understand that a 12 rpm motor is a 12 rpm motor no matter what.....But if you put a 10 inch wheel on it ..it will turn xxxx rpms on the out side of the wheel.....if you put a 14 inch wheel on it ...it will turn at a slower rpm at the out side of the wheel.....am i correct on this........Thanks for your input.... Brent No, the lures will still be making exactly the same RPM as the motor no matter what diameter wheel you are turning. What matters is how fast the lures are being rotated through 360 degrees of rotation. Rotation, not velocity is what keeps the epoxy or other finish from sagging and running. If the diameter of the wheel doubles, the lures will be moving through the air faster but the rotation rate remains the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) No, the lures will still be making exactly the same RPM as the motor no matter what diameter wheel you are turning. What matters is how fast the lures are being rotated through 360 degrees of rotation. Rotation, not velocity is what keeps the epoxy or other finish from sagging and running. If the diameter of the wheel doubles, the lures will be moving through the air faster but the rotation rate remains the same. Bob is right. RPM stands for Revolutions Per Minute. You can run around your house at 12rpm, but you will have to run a lot faster to run around your block at 12rpm. You need to think about revs per minute and get it straight in your head. You should not worry about going too slow. Some builders up-end their lures once a minute, this is the equivalent of 0.5rpm. Turning too fast could arguably be more of a problem, as you are not allowing the epoxy enough time to flow out in one direction, before it starts flowing back again. My wheel turns at 5rpm and I can set lures at 3.5", 6.5" and 9.5" radii and they all work equally well and they all turn at 5rpm. Wheel radius only affects centrifugal force. A 12" radius wheel only has a 5% centrifugal force, 100% being when the lure becomes weightless at the top of the stroke. 100% would require a 24 foot radius wheel at 12rpm, so unless you are building a giant wheel, radius can be ignored (trying hard not to get techy here). Dave Edited March 31, 2011 by Vodkaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent R Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) No, the lures will still be making exactly the same RPM as the motor no matter what diameter wheel you are turning. What matters is how fast the lures are being rotated through 360 degrees of rotation. Rotation, not velocity is what keeps the epoxy or other finish from sagging and running. If the diameter of the wheel doubles, the lures will be moving through the air faster but the rotation rate remains the same. Thanks Bob.....so a 9rpm motor with a 7 inch diameter wheel on it .......would be better than a 9rpm motor with a 14 inch diameter wheel on it.... am i correct??? Thanks again for all the help.... Brent Edited March 31, 2011 by Double Trouble Lures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knooter Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Obviously you are confused. 9 RPM's is 9 RPM's, no matter the size of the wheel. However, you mentioned that when you made the wheel diameter bigger, it went down to 7.6 RPM's. That was likely due to the increased workload put on the motor. If it went down in RPM's that much, the motor is likely overloaded. Every motor is rated at FLA or Full Load Amps. This rating tells you how many amps the motor is designed to draw under its maximum intended load. If your amp draw is higher than the FLA rating, the motor will not live long. Under increased amperage the motor builds heat in the rotor and windings. Eventually the heat will either dry out the bearings and seize them up, or it will melt the insulation within the windings, causing an electrical short circuit. You mentioned the load ratings (torque output). If the torque of this motor is only 3.5 inch lbs, you may be in trouble when you put a large (heavier) wheel on it. If the rating was actually 3.5 FOOT lbs, you should be fine. An inch pound is 1/12 of a foot pound. Torque is measured in how much weight it can move on a lever of a given length. 20 foot lbs means it can apply 20 lbs of pressure on a one foot lever. Imagine a drying wheel of 12 inch radius. With a 3.5 inch pound rating, it will apply (3.5/12) pounds or 0.3 pounds of force at the outer edge of the wheel. That only allows you to put about a 5 ounce lure on it. Granted it can turn more lures if they balance each other out around the wheel, but total weight starts to add up and will max out the load quickly. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent R Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) Obviously you are confused. 9 RPM's is 9 RPM's, no matter the size of the wheel. However, you mentioned that when you made the wheel diameter bigger, it went down to 7.6 RPM's. That was likely due to the increased workload put on the motor. If it went down in RPM's that much, the motor is likely overloaded. Every motor is rated at FLA or Full Load Amps. This rating tells you how many amps the motor is designed to draw under its maximum intended load. If your amp draw is higher than the FLA rating, the motor will not live long. Under increased amperage the motor builds heat in the rotor and windings. Eventually the heat will either dry out the bearings and seize them up, or it will melt the insulation within the windings, causing an electrical short circuit. You mentioned the load ratings (torque output). If the torque of this motor is only 3.5 inch lbs, you may be in trouble when you put a large (heavier) wheel on it. If the rating was actually 3.5 FOOT lbs, you should be fine. An inch pound is 1/12 of a foot pound. Torque is measured in how much weight it can move on a lever of a given length. 20 foot lbs means it can apply 20 lbs of pressure on a one foot lever. Imagine a drying wheel of 12 inch radius. With a 3.5 inch pound rating, it will apply (3.5/12) pounds or 0.3 pounds of force at the outer edge of the wheel. That only allows you to put about a 5 ounce lure on it. Granted it can turn more lures if they balance each other out around the wheel, but total weight starts to add up and will max out the load quickly. Hope this helps. Thanks for your input.....The thread i posted about the motor dropping to 7.6 was from someone else.......And yes your right 9rpm is 9rpm....and yes i was confused.....thanks for the info on torque that was really helpful....I guess i need to try and find a different motor for my drying wheel....Thanks again..... Brent Edited March 31, 2011 by Double Trouble Lures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent R Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Bob is right. RPM stands for Revolutions Per Minute. You can run around your house at 12rpm, but you will have to run a lot faster to run around your block at 12rpm. You need to think about revs per minute and get it straight in your head. You should not worry about going too slow. Some builders up-end their lures once a minute, this is the equivalent of 0.5rpm. Turning too fast could arguably be more of a problem, as you are not allowing the epoxy enough time to flow out in one direction, before it starts flowing back again. My wheel turns at 5rpm and I can set lures at 3.5", 6.5" and 9.5" radii and they all work equally well and they all turn at 5rpm. Wheel radius only affects centrifugal force. A 12" radius wheel only has a 5% centrifugal force, 100% being when the lure becomes weightless at the top of the stroke. 100% would require a 24 foot radius wheel at 12rpm, so unless you are building a giant wheel, radius can be ignored (trying hard not to get techy here). Dave Thanks .....i understand it now......the other thread had me confused about it all......all is well.....thanks for your time and effort......Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) Thanks Bob.....so a 9rpm motor with a 7 inch diameter wheel on it .......would be better than a 9rpm motor with a 14 inch diameter wheel on it.... am i correct??? Thanks again for all the help.... Brent Now don't start backsliding on the concept of how a turner works, Brent! It won't be better or worse, but just exactly the same as far as rotating lures goes. I like keeping the diameter of the wheel as small as practical to take up less space and minimize the mass that the motor has to spin, so the 7" diameter wheel might get my vote. But maybe a larger wheel would better accommodate the size and number of lures you plan to be rotating. You have to judge that. Larger or smaller, the lures will be getting rotated just the same. BTW, another question that often comes up is whether it's better to orient lures on their horizontal or vertical axis while on the turner. The answer is both work equally well. As long as every spot on the lure rotates through 360 degrees, any orientation you care to name will keep epoxy from moving around on the lure - and that's what a lure turner is all about. I use a very simple 6 rpm turner. The motor is connected directly to a 10" axle and there are six 1" spokes coming off the axle, with alligator clips to hold the lure by their lips. The axle and spokes are made from 3/4" and 1/8" dowels. About as basic and ugly as you can get but it's worked for 5 yrs. Guys come up with all kinds of designs based on the volume and the size of lures they build, and materials they have available to build their lure turner. As long as the baits get rotated, it's all good. Edited March 31, 2011 by BobP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent R Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Now don't start backsliding on the concept of how a turner works, Brent! It won't be better or worse, but just exactly the same as far as rotating lures goes. I like keeping the diameter of the wheel as small as practical to take up less space and minimize the mass that the motor has to spin, so the 7" diameter wheel might get my vote. But maybe a larger wheel would better accommodate the size and number of lures you plan to be rotating. You have to judge that. Larger or smaller, the lures will be getting rotated just the same. BTW, another question that often comes up is whether it's better to orient lures on their horizontal or vertical axis while on the turner. The answer is both work equally well. As long as every spot on the lure rotates through 360 degrees, any orientation you care to name will keep epoxy from moving around on the lure - and that's what a lure turner is all about. I use a very simple 6 rpm turner. The motor is connected directly to a 10" axle and there are six 1" spokes coming off the axle, with alligator clips to hold the lure by their lips. The axle and spokes are made from 3/4" and 1/8" dowels. About as basic and ugly as you can get but it's worked for 5 yrs. Guys come up with all kinds of designs based on the volume and the size of lures they build, and materials they have available to build their lure turner. As long as the baits get rotated, it's all good. Thanks Bob......i know i sound like a dumg -ss......I learned a lot by info that has been sent.....I thought it was said that the larger the wheel the more volosity on the out side of the wheel....So i understood that the small the wheel the better....As for as cranks go i was going to turn them tail over head...but i was going to turn swimbaits long ways.....I have also given the rpms a lot more thought....I am assuming that 6rpms will work just fine with any epoxy....any more input would be welcomed..I also would like to thank all of the TU members for their time and info for teaching me the ropes. It saved me a lot of time and money for their nollege..One day i hope i can also help others.....Not using this as a handy cap but i had a brain tumor a few years ago and i'm not as fast on things as i use to be.....Thanks again for being a friend....take care........Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
