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Brushing Dick Nite S-81?
25 replies to this topic
Posted 03 April 2011 - 05:16 PM
I just read several pages of old posts on Dick Nite Moisture Cured S-81 topcoat. I couldn't really figure out if it was ok to brush a 2nd / 3rd coat within a short window of the first coat. I was really suprised on how little discussion there was on recoat times, given how popular DN is. FWIW I do plan on heatsetting my Createx.
What little info I found seemed to point toward 24 hours or more being the best flash time between brushings, but that seems like forever given that it needs days to cure after the final pass. I mean if that's what it really takes I'm going to forget about S-81 as soon as the can is gone! If anybody is having success with a 2nd coat within an hour or two I'm dying to hear about it and about the typical humidity % different users have dealt with. And I have some acetone lying around...maybe thinning with that would help reduce the wait?
I ordered a 2 oz sample Friday, and I'm trying to get the theory down before it arrives because I don't want to dip out of a can that small. Would rather tap the can, pour out enough to brush a few lures, etc. Also for my glitter coated baits several coats will probably be needed to smooth things out, given that it took 2 good coats of D2T. I want to at least give DN a shot before I decide to go with Lure-craft Poly-sil ($25 hazmat fee to ship) or some kind of auto clear.
Posted 03 April 2011 - 11:16 PM
I don't use S81, but with all these types of coatings, the best time to re-coat is when the first coat has set, but not cured. This way, the two coats bond together to make an effective single coat. If you wait 24 hours, you will get two separate coats that have the potential to delaminate. If I am wrong on this, please correct me.
Your best bet is to prepare a test piece and experiment with coating times, just to make sure that nothing wrinkles. Don't forget to report back.
Posted 03 April 2011 - 11:33 PM
Hi Dave....what kind of clear coat do you use....and why........Seems like just about everyone uses s81 and thinks it's great....except for the storage problems.....but that stuff is NOT cheap......
Thanks for your time
Posted 04 April 2011 - 12:30 AM
If I could get S81 locally, I would use it. The postal system to Indonesia is abysmal, a lot of stuff just goes missing, so I am confined to what I can find locally. I have found a source of D2T at a DIY store, but $4.30 for a 1oz pack, is a tad pricey. So the hunt for a locally available epoxy goes on. I found an epoxy supplier, but the finish was soft and yellow, disappointing.
As far as cost, you have to break it down to cost per ounce and compare between products, also how many lures you can get out of an ounce. I can coat 18 small cranks with a pack of D2T, so that is 27c per lure, so not so expensive. S83 is a lot thinner than D2T, so the number of coatings would be a lot higher.
More importantly, you have to consider quality and finish. The order that I would place a top coats attributes: 1 - performance. 2 - ease of use. 3 - storage. 4 - cost. Others would possibly arrange the attributes differently and even add others, but I think most would place performance first. If the coat does not protect the lure and make the paint look good, then what is the point.
If someone brought out a coat that looked great, repelled musky teeth, applied faultlessly every time, cured in 5 minutes and had a working time of two hours. People would pay a dollar a lure for it, I am sure.
Posted 04 April 2011 - 01:26 AM
I only use S81 to coat my baits. I found out if you dip the baits you usually only need 1 coat to get a good thick coat on the bait. Not as thick as that horrible D2T. I usually brush the coats on my baits to get 2 thin coats then I don't have to deal with the baits dripping all over the place where I hang them to dry. I usually will wait about 4 hours between coats and then let them sit for about 2 days before I would think about selling them. The storage is an issue but I think this is the best stuff I have every used and it will be very hard to get me to switch to something else. Hope this helps some. If you have any more questions I will certainly try to answer them.
Posted 04 April 2011 - 09:21 AM
I know this sounds painfully obvious, but would FedEx or UPS be more reliable , assuming they operate in your area? I'll be sure to do a d2t vs DN performance report here once the cranks have been properly abused on the local quarry pond riprap.
Posted 04 April 2011 - 09:24 AM
1) You have abused your baits and they don't delaminate, crack or chip signifigantly?
2) What's the humidity like where you paint your lures?
3) What condition is the first coat in when you apply the second - gummy tack, light tack, dry to touch?
Posted 04 April 2011 - 09:37 AM
Yes, these services are available and reliable, but Fedex is $43 (0.5Kg) from USA to Indonesia. This is why I do not sell lures in the USA.
Edited by Vodkaman, 04 April 2011 - 09:37 AM.
Posted 05 April 2011 - 02:09 AM
1. The few I have got to use this winter have looks really good after using them for about 2 - 3 hours.
2. Humidity is usually really high. I just started painting this winter and the humidity has not been to bad. Summer I guess I will find out when the humidity is about 90%.
3. First coat is light tack when I put the next coat on and before I use the bait it has been dry to the touch for a day or so.
Posted 05 April 2011 - 11:00 AM
Appreciate the gory detail. I wonder if a humid day or even some kind of extra humid enclosure (box or something) would help reduce recoat times. I'm aiming for 12 seconds here lol.
Posted 05 April 2011 - 12:09 PM
Have you tried speeding the drying process with a hair dryer?
Posted 05 April 2011 - 02:43 PM
No. This will be my first time trying DN; I'm still waiting for the sample to arrive. Hopefully they aren't too backed up over there - it took a few days just to get an invoice. I thought about hitting it w/ a dryer but was worried that somehow flashing off the solvent might screw up the moisture cure. Does it work?
Posted 05 April 2011 - 09:15 PM
If you are going to use glitter you will not be happy with DN. I have only had good results with glitter with D2T.
Both D2T and DN have good uses for different applications.
I apply second coats of the S81 after 5 hours.
Heat will not help It's moisture cured.
Someone on here wrote about how to use a self tapping screw to tap the can and it solved my storage issues.
I had tried everything including Bloxygen and this little trick is the solution.
I use DN for top waters, most jigs, spinnerbaits, chatter baits, and all spoons.
D2T still gives that deep look an great protection for most cranks especially with a glitter coat.
Just my preferences for what it's worth.
Posted 06 April 2011 - 10:04 AM
Why do you say that? Is it because DN is so thin and won't cover the glitter? I'll be doing a lot of glitter coated baits, and I want to hear more about the shortcomings of DN and glitter.
I don't mix glitter into clear, by the way. I just throw some clear down bare then dust with dry glitter over that, tapping off the excess. I'm moving away from D2T because it killed the flash on my glittered lures.
Posted 06 April 2011 - 02:27 PM
Your process will work fine with DN. Some of the guys like the glitter suspended in the clear so epoxy works better. I dip in Dn and after one coat with glitter I dip again. I still use Etex on cranks and other baits that changing the ballast won't matter but I still dip them in Dn before using them. I've had too many epoxy coated baits crack and pull the finish off with it.
Posted 06 April 2011 - 03:20 PM
Sounds good. I agree D2T isn't really topflite durable. How long do you wait between dips?
Posted 07 April 2011 - 01:25 PM
Usually overnight, however when the weather gets warmer I'll cut it down to 8hrs. Don't want to get in a hurry as the first coat can "melt" if you re-coat too soon.
Posted 12 April 2011 - 09:48 AM
Ok so I got my sample and brushed a lure with it...the coat I put on was pretty heavy and I got some sags and brushmarks. I know I should have gone lighter on it but I just wanted to ask if it is possible to get a perfectly smooth finish? I'm going to strip this lure down and start again. I'll thin with acetone and do a light coat next time...looks like I got a little too used to d2t's self leveling properties.
Edited by blazt*, 12 April 2011 - 09:49 AM.
Posted 12 April 2011 - 09:51 AM
What time frames have you had problems with as far as the melting goes?
Posted 12 April 2011 - 11:31 AM
Please remember, I'm posting this as an hobbyist who has found a way to cut time from my building process, and I want to share it with others, not to tell you how you should do things.
Since you say warmer weather speeds the drying process, why not play around with using a hair dryer to speed things up. Heat accelerates most chemical reactions.
I use a water borne urethane similiar to S82, the DN WRTC, and can dip three coats in two hours using a hair dryer carefully between dips.
For me, time is the most expensive part of lure making, so I speed things up wherever I can.
Plus, I think, by dipping right after I've heat set my last coat of Createx and applying my eyes, the urethane bonds to the fresh paint, and each dip coat bonds to the previous coat.
I got over eager, and fished a lure the day after I'd painted and finished it, instead of waiting a day like I normally do.
The lake I was fishing had come up 10' in a week, and the water was dirty, and the yellow/black back 2.5 crank I'd painted the day before seemed like the perfect color and lure style, so I tied it on and tried to beat it to death against the newly flooded brush that was in the coves.
The finish held up fine, but I chipped off the paint in a couple of spots when I bounce the crank through the flooded brush too hard, if that's possible.
I had used Createx white as a base coat over an unfinished plastic crank, and the paint chipped off down to the white base coat. I think the base coat was bonded too well to the plastic because I dip the plastic cranks in acetone to clean them before I paint them, and that really promotes a good bond.
But the urethane top coat and the finished paint scheme under it chipped off, instead of peeling, and the remaining paint and top coat were fine.
I continued to fish that lure all day, off and on, and then, when I got home, I touched up the missing color with sharpies, and dipped the lures again. The repairs held up fine when I fished the same lure last Sunday, but this time I had let it sit that extra day, to cure, just in case.
This long winded post is just because I hate to waste time, and I hate people who don't share what they've learned with others.
Everything I know about lure making and painting I've learned here on TU from other members.