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trick trout

Bass Swimbait

29 posts in this topic

this is my imitation of a Jerry Rago Generic Trout... although it is a lot smaller than the orginal Generic Trout which is 7, 9, 12, 16 inches... and this one is only 6 inches... Really this bait was not made to make Jerry mad and i have no intention i just wanted to make an imtation and put my own pattern on the bait... and the main reason why i am posting this bait is to show my new pattern not to show that i can try and imitate others baits...

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Regardless of what patterns ones wants on a bait, knocking off someones bait 100% is a bad idea, it creates animosity and a poor reputation, if you plan to knock off someones bait, its best kept to yourself and not publically shown or advertised. This is only my 2 cents

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SR... he says it's an imitation but it has a different fin structure, and what looks like a different hinge structure. You also have quite a few people on here that talk about copying the dee's baits so why would it not be ok for swimbaits. Making them and showing them off is cool... selling on the other hand i wouldn't agree with.

trick: damn nice bait. Is it made of wood or some kind of plastic like featherlite?

Erik P.

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Why I say this is this, I have been in the industry, manufacturing, selling and exporting for a long long time, your reputation is gold, knock off a companies bait and thats what you will be known by "A Knock Off Artist" Since Jerry Rago is a great friend of mine, I am sure we would feel the same way as I do. I am not telling you to not do it, just be forwarned. No reputable retail, wholesale, or broker would buy any knocked off bait, there reputation is on the line also. Like I said, if its personal use, fine, however, I realy do not think that the Rago bait can be improved, I would rather buy an original.

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I didn't hear him say anything about selling. Hard baits are no different then soft baits. SR, I see baits on you site that can be found almost everywhere, and sure that all those people didn't copy 'your' ideas. Was your Voodoo series introduced before the 'FX' series by Robo? If not, then I think there is a bit of a conflict in what you just said.

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Color has nothing to do with it, 'HELLO MCFLY" 95% of molds can be bought, I dare you to find a mold of the Generic Trout for sale, as for the VOODOO series, Morning Dawn, Chocolate Blue, etc... nobody cares if you copy colors, you are the one who brought up FX, which is coloring, how else are you going to attract customers. Sinse this is a forum for advise, which is what I was giving, and you appear to take it personally, email me at [url]www.srplastics@cox.net[/url] or call me at 619-449-7727 during business hours and I will be glad to school you more on this topic. I have found that the ones who wine about its o.k. knocking off baits are the ones who can not be original. All my molds (except my swimbaits, they are all original) were either bought from a mold company or are the ones I acquired when I bought out one of my competitors. I never said, that he was going to sell them, I just laid out the facts of what to expect if you do, again this is advise. If you take a close look, you will see that the Robo FX and the VOODOO are very different, although, I am flattered you would liken the 2.

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[quote]'HELLO MCFLY"[/quote]
Another original by SR...

[quote]Color has nothing to do with it[/quote]
I never mentioned color. I was talking about 'design'. If there is not a patent on the bait, then why can't he make a mold and sale it?
[quote]95% of molds can be bought[/quote]

[quote]Sinse this is a forum for advise, which is what I was giving, and you appear to take it personally, email me at [url]www.srplastics@cox.net[/url] or call me at 619-449-7727 during business hours and I will be glad to school you more on this topic[/quote]

School me on what, the topic of giving advice? :?

[quote]No reputable retail, wholesale, or broker would buy any knocked off bait, there reputation is on the line also[/quote]

Senko, Stiko, Sinko, Slinko, need I continue?!

Hey Trick Trout, the bait looks good! :D

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Ya, Stiko, Sinko, Slinko, how many of those do you see on the market.
The Spade minnow looks alot like my minnow that I came up with about 7 years ago, didnt you buy some from EBAY and copy it, whether you did or did not doesnt matter to me, you planning on adding more that 2 baits to your website. You are wasting my time and the boards space, your probably pouring out of your garage and not paying FET, when you have experience (and your posts tell me you dont) then I will listen to you, you know what they say, if you throw a rock into a bunch of dogd, the one barking the loudest is the one that got hit. As I posted, you have my email and phone, use it. End of topic

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Wow. Maybe we all need to take a deep breath on this one. I think the bottom line is it is a pretty neat bait, regardles of the origination of the idea. Obviously even reproducing something like that for personal use takes a good bit of talent.

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like i said in my original post, i never ment to make you mad or especially Jerry mad...when i made the bait i had no intention at all of selling it or giving it away...when i posted my first post i was 100% trying to get comments about my pattern, and 0% trying to get people to bash me on making an imitation bait... to me when i made this bait i had the idea to change things on Jerry's original design like the fins on the bottom and the hinge is different... just to see what the difference would be... again i ment no harm when i made this bait... and now i know i would not like guys to imitate my baits and then sell them... but if someone wanted to try and imitate my bait and keep it to himself to use or show others i would have no problem at all... and maybe me and jerry are different and he would not want me to even dare and imitate his bait... and to Jerry i would like to appologize if i affeneded him when i made this bait or took anything thing away from him...

Now here are my 2 cents... on your web site SR i see alot of your baits that are identical or very close to other baits out on the market... like your 4" creeper, to me it is a copy of a chicken foot leach... your 4"/6"voodoo baits to me lookslike a 4 1/2"/6" roboworm....your 4" grasshopper to me looks like a brush hog... your 3-4" v-shad looks like the original z-shad... your 4"/5" ciggy looks like a 4"/5" gary yamamoto senko... your 4" ripple looks like the original 4" zipper...your 6" crawler looks like a 7" roboworm...your 5" skipshad looks like a zoom super fluke... your SR 7"/9" Swimbaits look to me like a 7"/9" Osprey... Your 8" Dagon looks like a 9 1/2" Jerry Rago Soft Live Trout... so mant of your baits look like many of the orginals... im not trying to rag or bash you but i just feel that your in the same boat as me...

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Like I said, most of these baits are [b]BOUGHT[/b] molds (already created, Lurecraft etc...) The swimbaits are all original, as for the VShad, I spoke with Larry Wood, the owner of Anglers Choice and got his permission to copy it, my bait does not have the belly slit. You are missing the point completely, all I was saying is what to expect. I never said your bait was bad or slammed or bashed you, sorry you took it that way. A Chevy looks like a GMC, the point is put on the market what the consumer wants, if its a knock off, be prepared to deal with the critisism. As for the 8" DAGON, that was out befor Jerry's bait, you can call him to confirm that one.

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I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and suggest that SRplastic chill out. I have worked for 30 years as a product designer (in another industry), and the way product development goes is this. If one company has a really successful idea one year then the next you will see most of their competitors respond with something similar. When I first started designing this really bothered me, but over the years I have come to realize that's how progress happens. In order to be competitive your product must be either an improvement or cheaper. Either is good for the consumer. If your idea is unique enough you can patent it. Otherwise it is public domain and knock-offs are a healthy part of any market.
Trick Trout seems to have taken a product that is in the public domain and improved (?) on it. Whether he sells it or not no one has the right to hastle him about it.

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I was done, but because SR had to go back later and take a couple more shots...

No, that is not 'YOUR' minnow that you came up with 7 years ago. That is a modified version of the Lurecraft mold 5X697. And you already said it's ok to buy manufactured molds, right?

Because I pour in my garage I'm wasting your time and the board's time? Actually I do have an EIN, a resale # and I do pay taxes. That's a pretty low blow to say that just because people pour in the garage, they don't know anything! That's where most people start. Yes, I do plan on adding more baits to my website. But unlike you, I like to do the work. I do my own web, make my own molds. This is just a hobby that I hope to make a little money with. I don't rely on others to do everything else for me.

It's the little comments like 'use common sense', 'don't you think that's already done', 'don't waste your time, just spend the money' that bring people down. You are not the final answer to lure making. Maybe if you had something positive to say once in awhile, people would have taken more lightly. I won't drag others into this, but I've already received 11 PM and e-mails from other board members that agree with what I said. Sooo.........
[b]End of Topic!!![/b]

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Oh Yeah. I forgot what Trick Trout asked for in the first place. Feedback. The workmanship looks awsome, and the fins are a major improvement on the original. The paint job is a zero for me cause why make a super realistic trout bait and then paint it to look like a Mudcat. Overall a 7 out of 10.

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Scots reputation is awsome out here. i know that most anglers i know out here would much rather buy SR or Tightline baits over most including Robo. i have probly 20 of Scots swimbaits and 1 Osprey, there is a reason for this. An osprey has all the internal wire forms and such, Scots swimbaits dont. look at them closly, i can point out a ton of differences. i personally know Scot and a guy in Bishop California that origonaly owned an Osprey branch. I like the SR's and so do many.

Over all, i think ( as well as most out here) that Scots baits are of higher quality than most.

My 2 cents

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If your bait cuts the mustard the anglers will buy it. If it doesnt you will go broke. Knowledgeable anglers know the difference in quality baits. As far as knock offs.. Look at the Madman Craw Tube......anything else out there like it. Yes. Do they work as well. Yes. How can that be????? Thats America baby!

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Where do you think Dave at Lurecraft got the minnow mold, call him and ask him. I do all my own web pages also, so nothing new there.

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With my last post i never said that Scot had a bad reputation down here as a knock off artist... was just saying that alot of his baits look similar to the others... i will take you word that the dagon was out before the live trout... and the you had permission to make the v-shad... but to CJ just there are similarities with the SR 5/7/9 swimbaits to the osprey's... and i give Scot credit beacuse he did make those molds himself, but when someone goes into the process of making a swimbait now, with all the recent swimbaits being made and all new designs you can't help to look at the SR swimbaits, Eagle swimbaits, Kelly Craft swimbaits, the 316 Rising Sun swimbait... and they all have definet similarities, and maybe i'm wrong that you can't change the whole bait and design of something a little more original, but to me in the swimbait designing business there are still lots of different ways to go in desiging a swimbait... like the Dagon now that i know that Scot had it out first i give him credit for trying somthing a little different and showing a different aspect to swimbaits...
so lets just end this on a better note than it started... although i made that bait with no intention of pissing someone off, it happened, i can see how Scot wasn't happy that i made this bait... but again i was just making it to add something to an already great bait... And i would have rather had this topic become something of me just showing my new pattern other than making a whole scene...

P.S.: thanks guys for the constructive criticism on the pattern

(Scot did you get my PM yet?)

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Andrew, I was never mad at you, just giving input, Kelly Kraft for example, I gave my mold to them so they could make a swimbait. I have no problem with competition, I encourage it. Good Luck Andrew, is your last name Hinkle?

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Been on this board since the day it started and this is the first string of disagreements I have personally read..it was bound to happen eventually.

If you have not done so already, go to the United States Patent Office Website and do some searching. Here you will find that absolutely no idea out there today is new, every possible concept you can think of has a patent on it, it's quite amazing. You might also purchase [b]Fishing Lure Collectibles[/b], a wonderful book by Murphy and Edmisten with hundreds of color photos in it. Both of these sources will make it clear to you that many of our "modern lures" are actually not so contemporary at all. Spinner baits, old, buzzbaits, ancient, spinners of every shape, fossils, rubber baits, antique, jerk baits, crank baits, small, large, sinking, floating, frogs, ducks, insects, props, bucktails, eyes, weedless, they have all been patented for 75 years or more. There have been some very smart guys down in the basement, out in the shop, avoiding their wives and making lures forever. Most of the ideas guys patent today are very subtle changes from concepts that have in many cases been around for 50 or more years. The photo-finish baits I like to make, guys were doing 50 years or more ago...they drew the pattern, layed it on, and finished over it.

I would never encourage someone to make a mold from a bait and then call it their own particularly if you are going to make money at it. But in reality, ALL of us, are making subtle changes to concepts that have been around before most of us were born. The new swimbaits are really cool but far from unique, large minnow shaped lures very similar to those made today that included jointed bodies and fins have been made for a hundred years or more. The fact that someone is now calling these lures "swim baits", making it from rubber (which is also been used for decades), and giving it his own paint-job, does not in my book make it a "unique concept". It is "his bait" yes, but it is not UNIQUE.

Each of us puts his own personality into their work but in the end we are all making things that have been made by others long before us...well except for that new lure of mine that screams "here fishy, fishy, fishy".

Jed

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I was really trying to stay out of this one...... Lord was I trying. But I just can't stand it. On the old original site that many of the old guys here use to frequent, we had the same thing happen between some folks. No big deal...... just good discussion. My original answer to those guys is the same that I will put here.

The majority of guys on this site are good enough baitmakers to copy just about anything. If I want to copy a bait for myself or to sell I can do it. I will just buy an original, tear it apart and copy it. Most of us are garage bait makers. Plenty of tallent and hard workers at our craft. But we work alone, and are limited in time and tools to really ramp up and be competitive with industry or someone elses market in another part of the country. I'm a knock off artist. I make a Poes 400P and a Bagley Balsa bII look alike. I have made 3/4 size Poes 300s which are a knock off of the Zoom 300 knock off of a Poes 300. The difference is mine are made much better than the originals. No brag, just fact. The ammount of time that I take to make one of these baits is tremendous. I sell them and charge a steep price for them too. However, I probably only make about 300 baits a year. I am a one man shop and couldn't really take anyones business from them even if I wanted to. I had a guy even take some baits that he bought from me and took them to work and had them X-rayed to figure out how I did them. I know this because he sent me email asking me questions after he still couldn't figure it out.

The bait that is the topic here is a real nice bait. It took alot of skill and tallent to make it. Even if he copies it to sell it, I don't think that he will be kicking out 4 or 5 thousand of them any time soon. The fishermen will make their decission on what they want to use. The only folks that will call me a knock off artist are other baitmakers or their close friends. Personally, I really don't care what they call me........ because the baits that I knocked off and sold just made this months payment on my Skeeter and the customer got a superior bait. Otherwise, why would they be paying me 2 to 4 times the price of an original.

How good are the guys on this site? Heck, I'm thinking about posting a picture of a F-15 just to see if Coley can have one built by the end of the month.

Skeeter

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